Lower the Rubber

[Titanoboa]

We tried out both 0.2 and 1 rubber fortress one or two years ago. Just like a few have touched on, it was incredibly easy to cut as the defender couldn't adjust to his own wall. Centering however worked and was fun, much different from 5 rubber centering though. 0.2/1 rubber fortress wasn't a hit at all.

0.2 rubber sumo bar and tst's were however a ton of fun with a lot of speeding and tunneling. I miss that

[Concord]

Saw the video. It seems even more unforgiving than playing with bots in local matches. It'd make an awesome new game mode, essentially entirely different from current fort, right down to the the splits and everything, because grinding would be suicide.

this is blatantly false. you should test things before speak about them

absolutely every single criticism of this idea has been invalid. we played 4v4 and 5v5 last night. teams grinded, peopled defended, people attacked, appleseed even centered. but that all of you are throwing around your theories of what will happen before you try it is to be expected I guess. as ben harper says, before you knock it, try it first.

[epsy]

Yes, we can all see you tested things thoroughly before starting this thread, Concord.

Can we all stop the "You are not holy enough to talk" bullshit? Else this thread is going nowhere. Oh, and drop the low rubber master race crap too. If you don't want to hear the "lowly high-rubber peasants" talk, I suggest you create your own master race forums, because we are not having it here.

[Concord]

race isn't the theory here. they're speaking ignorantly because they haven't tried it, and that makes them cowards. they're lying to themselves

[ConVicT]

Fortress needs lower rubber.
Rubber is boring. It allows cycles to stop moving. Not moving is the opposite of action.

I can't wait to see "Please grind center at the start" and everyone dies cuz there's no rubber

[epsy]

As for me. I'm open to try this on pickup's fort6.ger1.eu/kotf3.ger1.eu on a satursday, or anytime on the public play King of the Sand Fortress. If there is anything that can (further) weaken the defense and this is it, I want to try it. Hit me up on IRC.

However, I am concerned that this will put off newer players further. Currently on KotSF, a new player will take about three rounds to get the grinding phase right, many times crashing in the center player's trail while trying. Lowering the rubber will only let this happen more.

Also, centering/center prevention plays a large role in the game. I hope this doesn't completely deny centers as this would strengthen the defense, which is not my objective.

Of course, all of this is only theoretical. Only playtesting will confirm or infirm those concerns or hopes. So let's get to it.

[vov]

I came up with these settings...

This is how you should have started this thread...
These are good settings, maybe have the wall_shrink at 0.5-1 though, it feels a little better when defending to me. The extra settings also enable some speed and tunnels, which is really needed for action. It is what was missing before imo, making it so much better than local game style low rubber which, in my opinion, did not work for fortress on my old test server. Nice settings.

Can we all stop the "You are not holy enough to talk" bullshit? Else this thread is going nowhere. Oh, and drop the low rubber master race crap too. If you don't want to hear the "lowly high-rubber peasants" talk, I suggest you create your own master race forums, because we are not having it here.

...and this is how you did start the thread.
Don't be surprised having so many people against you or "not willing to sign your petition".

they're speaking ignorantly because they haven't tried it

I have tried a bunch of settings on my server and I told you my results. So did Titanoboa somewhere else (probably on Jip's?), and Overrated even on the current test server. We all tested it, and gave our opinions.

Also, centering/center prevention plays a large role in the game. I hope this doesn't completely deny centers as this would strengthen the defense, which is not my objective.

A good block blocks it, but it is still possible. Not much of a change to current state except of one less possible move* which doesn't even happen that often currently anyways.

*which is outdigging a bump which is technically adjusting against a wall

[sinewav]

race isn't the theory here. they're speaking ignorantly because they haven't tried it, and that makes them cowards. they're lying to themselves

^This. The game we played last night was hardly different with the settings Concord posted. Hoax was cutting like a madman and said something like "I can't see this taking off because it's not different enough," which is true. The only real difference is you can't 180 while you are already mashed up against a wall, so no double grinds. But you shouldn't be able to 180 on a wall anyway. That's rubber abuse if you ask me, it's like a cheaters way out when you change your mind in a tunnel.

And it doesn't matter how Concord started this thread. He could have covered it with perfume and roses and everyone would have completely lost their shit anyway because "OMG DON"T CHANGE FORTRESS!!!!"" even though Fort has been changed for the better several times already. Everything I said in this paragraph is 100% true.

[orion]

I personally dont like the idea and i think fortress is right as its right now.
But the best way for Sine and Concord i think will be put a server on and see if people likes or no, you will see in a few days if people wanna just keep 5 rubber or change it to 1.
Or just make it as "other gametype".

[Word]

they're speaking ignorantly because they haven't tried it, and that makes them cowards

for the record, years ago pru did have a fort server where rubber was 3 (without a forum discussion or advertising, granted), it was up for about two months but nobody played there except myself. You still misunderstand that there's a slight difference between being a coward and avoiding stuff of which you know that it is beyond your resources' capacities (internet connection, used rubber...). When I have no rubber left, I avoid tunnels and change my target to come back at a later time, or wait till it has refreshed - so thereby I admit to be a coward in your eyes, don't I?

What strikes me as wrong in Concord's argumentation that people who use rubber are cowards is that one can easily turn this around: You complain about it because you can't deal with it - which is exactly what "open" players already can't, on a daily basis. And yet they're even worse if you take away the rubber they claim not to use.
As for sine comparing it to cigarette taxes, that shows how this comes down to the old problem of individual freedom vs public freedom, meaning it's probably better to have more diverse servers so there isn't one party that feels being kind of discriminated against.

[Goodygumdrops]

The only real difference is you can't 180 while you are already mashed up against a wall, so no double grinds. But you shouldn't be able to 180 on a wall anyway. That's rubber abuse if you ask me, it's like a cheaters way out when you change your mind in a tunnel.

From where are you getting the idea that a player shouldn't be able to 180 in a tunnel?

And it doesn't matter how Concord started this thread. He could have covered it with perfume and roses and everyone would have completely lost their shit anyway because "OMG DON"T CHANGE FORTRESS!!!!"" even though Fort has been changed for the better several times already. Everything I said in this paragraph is 100% true.

This is exactly why you and concord are completely sucking in this thread. STFU with your shitty attitude and say something useful. People are always against change, that's true, but trying to goad by calling them cowards isn't useful. And I'd love to hear the "several times" fort has been changed for the better. List please?

[Gonzap]

Looks like the long, long, LONG discussion we had in elmo's thread word, psy, phyto and me hasn't changed anything. Everyone is still attacking each other, there is like 0 respect towards each other. All I can see when I read is people insulting people because they have a different opinion. Just grow manners damnit.

None is a coward and none is a pro here. Nobody gets paid as far as I know.

[sinewav]

And I'd love to hear the "several times" fort has been changed for the better. List please?

Some of these are Ladle specific, but...
1. No more winzone in Fortress.
2. Reduced lag due to switching from 8v8 to 6v6.
3. Reduction in hole size made teamwork more important.
4. Finals are best of 3 instead of 5, thus shortening the tournament time (great for EU players).
5. Raised round limit so matches end on points, eliminating cheap suicide victories and allowing for exciting comebacks.

Ok, none of the above changed a fundamental physics setting, but that shouldn't mean those are off limits.

From where are you getting the idea that a player shouldn't be able to 180 in a tunnel?

I have a rant on this I'll work on for later.

[Concord]

…and wall shrink

do you people know why ladles are decided by lag? It is because rubber prevents skill from deciding them. By making the game harder, skill determines more of the outcome, and lag is less of a factor.

I'm going to restate the very simple argument I laid out that began the thread. My argument is not based on what gameplay is like. Gameplay is dictated by settings, we should not dictate settings based on desired gameplay. The current state of fortress is a result of the current settings. It is not some intrinsic game that changing the settings ruins. Fortress is not the grind, or the center attack, or the defender or the attacker. Those things are derivative. Fortress is a game where there are two zones and two teams, nothing more. If you respect the game of Armagetron, you want to play it as well as possible. This is why you play with fortress and sumo settings. The best and most competitive players play fortress and sumo. This is not because of center attacks and double grinds. It is because these are the hardest competitive games of Armagetron, because they have the lowest rubber relative to cycle speed.* Better players play with harder settings. It's basic math. As a playing community, we should try to make the game we play harder so that we can become better players. We are currently leaving the game on easy mode. It's this basic reason for why rubber should decrease. It makes the game harder, it requires better players to play.

*There are several better servers than fortress or sumo servers, but they do not have a similar level of competitive play. I would just as soon argue that the entire fortress playerbase should pick up and move to Nexus9 or Illegal Exit or to default settings if I thought that had a better chance of happening.

The coward line is not irrelevant. People who prefer easier settings to hard ones are cowards. It's that simple.

This was my initial argument.

Fortress needs lower rubber.
Rubber is boring. It allows cycles to stop moving. Not moving is the opposite of action.
Rubber makes the game easier. It lowers the value of precise play by forgiving mistakes.
Rubber is illogical. Rubber comes into effect when you hit a wall, but if you are in contact with it, how can you get closer to it?

Fortress should adopt lower rubber settings that use rubber only what is designed for: to compensate for lag.

People who disagree with the proposal should speak to the reason I laid out here. There's nothing intrinsically bad about reducing the importance of center attacks or getting rid of the double grind. I do not consider those valid arguments against lowering the rubber. I hope that if you disagree with the idea, it is because you think high rubber is exciting, high rubber makes the game harder, or high rubber makes logical sense. I do not think any intellectually honest player can make those claims.

Furthermore, I would ask all the meta arguments to stay out of this thread. Don't clutter the thread by posting commentary on the argument itself. Just argue.

[Word]

Everyone is still attacking each other

uh no, it's a pretty constructive debate actually, with everyone presenting halfway rational arguments. As you can see I didn't like the coward/"we play low rubber so we are better by default"-part either (especially coming from a guy who thinks skill can be estimated in a democratic way...), but such illustrations aren't really personal attacks towards anyone.

People who prefer easier settings to hard ones are cowards. It's that simple.

And you still don't understand that at some point it can be so difficult that it's not playable at all. I can't do the same in US servers I can do in EU servers, so I have to be more careful there. Only someone who already has a good connection himself and knows nothing about the problems of other players can afford to call others cowards for playing in a way that is completely reasonable for them. I'll put it differently: If you consider everything else cowardice, have fun playing with a team of suckers who can't survive the first seconds.