Deleted By Solar

[Lucifer]

Heh, the game was plenty challenging when klanners stayed in their servers and 99% of the players in the other servers had nothing to do with any clans. I don't get where you conclude that you need clans to make the game more challenging.

You just need a larger group of people that like to play together.

I always treated this game as more like Board Game Night. A collection of random friends shows up, some of them are people you haven't yet met, and plays a game for a few hours, then goes home. No clan needed, just people.

It's not clans that make this game great, it's people.

[Word]

You just need a larger group of people that like to play together.

that's all we do, except that we call it "clan".

It's not clans that make this game great, it's people.

Clans usually consist of many people. There is usually a poll about each of them, and every member should be aware that it represents its clan once it is joined.


I didn't say clans are the one and only thing which make the game great, just that it is a part of it. Of course you can enjoy playing vs no-clanners but if you want to see a match between two almost equal teams you'll hardly find a random team that beats a clan.

[Mecca]

You just need a larger group of people that like to play together.

that's all we do, except that we call it "clan".

It's not clans that make this game great, it's people.

Clans usually consist of many people. There is usually a poll about each of them, and every member should be aware that it represents its clan once it is joined.


I didn't say clans are the one and only thing which make the game great, just that it is a part of it. Of course you can enjoy playing vs no-clanners but if you want to see a match between two almost equal teams you'll hardly find a random team that beats a clan.

Very few clan fights are between two equal teams...

[Lucifer]

Very few clan fights are between two equal teams...

No, it's usually 6 from one clan beating up a loner from another clan.

[sinewav]

I thinks clans are the worst thing about Armagetron, IMO. Seriously. It feeds all the self-important bullshit that 99% of all the arguments and drama in this community stems from. You can still have competitive teams without clan affiliation. You can still have cool people to play with without clans. They are 100% unnecessary.

[Word]

Very few clan fights are between two equal teams...

No, it's usually 6 from one clan beating up a loner from another clan.

in ctf wars it's almost always 4vs4. those are harmless, there aren't a lot of conflicts.

I thinks clans are the worst thing about Armagetron, IMO. Seriously. It feeds all the self-important bullshit that 99% of all the arguments and drama in this community stems from. You can still have competitive teams without clan affiliation. You can still have cool people to play with without clans. They are 100% unnecessary.

but where's the difference between teams and clans? It's not wrong that teams can be as good as a clan, but for me, a clan is still the same, just with a different name (or why, for example, do some players think plus is a clan whose leaders are Lizmatic and teen? ).

All the squabbles would be unnecessary if clans would solve their internal problems internally before they clash together with another group (regardless if it's a team or a clan).


edit: I wrote a few of those things already here

[sinewav]

in ctf wars it's almost always 4vs4. those are harmless, there aren't a lot of conflicts.

Yeah, never any drama in CTF...

but where's the difference between teams and clans?

Well I can't speak for KoD, but Plus doesn't require any exclusive commitment. You can play with us and still be in a clan. You can also play with us just for some event if we're short (TaZ played with us in a Ladle). You're not required to wear a tag - not even in competition (however, we usually do ... most of the time ... kind of.) There is no initiation or training period (this is a bizarre trend lately. training for what? more turning?) Plus members are also not expected to stick up for each other just because we're on the same team. How can I in good conscience stick up for Lizmatic if she's being a bitch? Just because we're on the same team doesn't mean I have to like her.

All the squabbles would be unnecessary if clans would solve their internal problems internally before they clash together with another group (regardless if it's a team or a clan).

Agreed. While we're at it, let's all achieve enlightenment.

I actually agree there are more similarities than differences when it comes to the team vs. clan debate. The thing I like about my team is the lack of things I dislike about existing clans. If I started my own team, I would run it the exact same way.

However, I am pretty bummed that there is a little drama surrounding us. It just so happens that some of us are trouble-makers - but we would cause trouble outside the team environment anyway, so whatever.

[gawdzilla]

**** you sine.wav

Also, fact: there are more clans than armaplayers. :X

[Word]

but where's the difference between teams and clans?

You can also play with us just for some event if we're short (TaZ played with us in a Ladle). You're not required to wear a tag - not even in competition (however, we usually do ... most of the time ... kind of.) There is no initiation or training period (this is a bizarre trend lately. training for what? more turning?)

we don't expect our members to wear clantags (they just do it cause they think it's fancy ; even Opeth doesn't (you probably don't know him anymore but he made the clan together with me. when we played an fpl match with him he was named "I like tangelos" and Durka almost kicked him because an "i like tangelos" wasn't on our roster and he refused to rename.
example (happened some minutes ago):



If I can speak for my clan (or its fortress team): we are still trying to practise together but it's for volunteers only (and i think we need some training....)

Plus members are also not expected to stick up for each other just because we're on the same team. How can I in good conscience stick up for Lizmatic if she's being a bitch? Just because we're on the same team doesn't mean I have to like her.

that's fine and probably the only real difference i can see. maybe it's because i like the idea of having some harmony in the team so the mates can easily find a compromise when someone wants a certain position or we discuss strategies (yea, seriously, we do that ).
The whole "we are a like a big family"/"we are the tron police"/"we are better than everyone else"-thing is
uninteresting as long as the players aren't bored or annoyed by themselves and their teammates.
The maxim we took full credit for when we started our clan was that we are the wittiest Armagetron clan which we thought would be something special, even if we can't win a lot of tournaments.

But, if you knew there was no bitch in your clan you are able to say "Phew I'm so excited that this bitch is in plus and not in our drama-free/innocent/snow-white clan! Oh, and I like all of you! Anyone for coffee and cake?! " Doesn't that make you feel a bit more comfortable?

Agreed. While we're at it, let's all achieve enlightenment.

Teams aren't any better than clans are!

(i suppose i'm unteachable when it comes to this point, so give it up - hehehehe)

ok, here's a real one

I can calculate the motions of the heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people

Also, fact: there are more clans than armaplayers. :X

Found your own clan and absorb the smaller ones to stop this trend

[Cosmic Dolphin]

I do believe, clans are a great place to study the effects of herd mentality.

Complete idiotic decisions that are all followed through like lemmings and cliffs.

[Word]

I do believe, clans are a great place to study the effects of herd mentality.

Complete idiotic decisions that are all followed through like lemmings and cliffs.

I disagree. Clans are a great place to study how people from different countries can work together and identify with the same spirit (which isn't necessarily good, but not bad either). If decisions are completely idiotically people quit a clan.

[Cosmic Dolphin]

I wasnt taking a shot at you word, sorry, as I have alway admired .Pru for keeping it in control. However, there are rarely ever any other clans like that.

[Lucifer]

For every "good" clan that comes along, there's at least 6 bad clans around, or that failed.

[compguygene]

For every "good" clan that comes along, there's at least 6 bad clans around, or that failed.

I certainly understand your viewpoint here. Let me share mine. For me, being in a clan adds another dimension to the game that I enjoy. There is a sense of "family" and "belonging" that goes along with me being in the Wild West Clan. We even have members that really don't participate in tourneys of clan wars, but just play the game, and are fun people to play with. But, the private forums, where we all feel more free to let our hair down, give an added aspect of fun and relaxation. Plus, it's kinda fun to go into a server, playing with fellow clan mates, and talk via /msg about private things we would rather not discuss with the wider world of Armagetron knowing. If you notice, although I am personable with people, I really don't discuss real life things or personal things with the larger community. However, with clan mates, its a little different.
So, being in a "good" clan helps me to socialize in positive ways that I wouldn't feel safe to do in the larger community. This social aspect is probably why we don't kick out Ww members for inactivity, etc. In Ww we really are a family!
However I totally agree with Lucifer's above statement! I also think that this is pretty normal behavior in online gaming. Of course, I always believe in the ultimate triumph and power of "Good vs Evil". I have also noticed that the "Good Clans" generally have more staying power. I would encourage anyone that is looking for this social aspect of being in a clan to join one of the "Good Clans" or consider making one. Personally, I have found my niche in being the Fortress Division Co-Leader in Ww, as I am getting the enjoyment of running a "clan within a clan" without the baloney of starting one. I mostly recruit internally.

[Lucifer]

While those are good points, Gene, try to remember a few things while you're at it.

Many of us here don't need a place to "let our hair down". We're relaxed and at home where we are, even if it is in the public's eye.

There's a certain amount of social grouping that can't really be avoided, and there's certainly a circle of friends that surrounds even us developers. We're just very accepting about who can be in that circle, for the most part. What most of us that object to clans object to is the formalizing of that social grouping stuff which is usually followed by a certain amount of exclusion from the group. And, mind you, it's not because we haven't been invited to partake. Probably the only reason I wasn't invited to Ww was because Manta already knew well how I felt about clans. I've personally been invited to more clans than I can even remember (including CT ), and I've turned down every invitation. Likewise, I'm proud that I haven't been invited to join SP. (Any clan conversation has to have at least one cheap shot at SP)

And when I do play, I do tend to go to servers that have people I know in them. Unless I'm playing anonymously, in which case I go to servers that look the most fun.

So the basic traits you're describing being in a clan for are well available to people not in clans. Hell, there's a small circle of arma players that also play other games together from time to time, not just silly forum games but other games like Freeciv, Scorched3d, some others. Some of the people in that circle don't even play arma! But we haven't formed a clan, because it's more like poker night. Whoever's there can play, and occasionally we (meaning mostly Luke-jr) go into other IRC channels to find other players.

So what are clans for, then, if you can get all the same benefits that you've described without joining a clan?