AFL Schedule is up

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

The SP vs Oops game was supposed to take place on Plato's somethingsomething server. (I can never remember the whole name of that server, so it's just called Plato's wherever I've put it) I don't see any custom connect info for the server anywhere, nor do I see anybody in #afl from that game meeting to work it out. I also checked #armagetron. So now we have the situation where there was obviously some sort of miscommunication, and nothing to show that there even was communication.

@Rico: you got kicked for being idle, then? If there's an ingame admin, you guys can relax those settings to prevent that. I guess that's a lesson for the next game. :) Please post what you have for a recording. Also get some other players from the game to certify that the game happened as it's posted on the wiki...

KOD vs Tards needs an MVP still. :)

I haven't heard anything about UT1 vs UT2 either. Anybody know where that game went?

Edit: Forgot a few things.

Recordings should be zipped and uploaded directly to the wiki. A lot of the lack of organization to how results will be tracked is due to not really knowing for sure what the best format will be, so I figured I'd wait and see what y'all did and then steal that. Er, improve upon that. :) In a perfect world, we'd have a separate page for each game, but who wants to do that? So recordings should be zipped and uploaded directly to the wiki (gzip is fine if the wiki takes it, but a zip file is what's wanted so that windows users can easily open it and view it). Screenshots should be uploaded to the wiki.

Screenshots aren't required because they can be gotten from the recording, but they make it look nicer. :)
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Post by Ricochet »

erm, the remains of the recording was deleted, sorry xD

will get some players to post about the game here to confirm. thanks luci.
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Post by Lucifer »

Ok, some words on the recording. I'll probably copy this to the wiki later.

In a perfect world, every single player would make and post a recording of the game. In that world, I can do some magic and make a video that shows all the cool parts of the games, put music on it, and that sort of thing. This is not a perfect world, however. Some players have problems making recordings (like durka mentioned with his lag bombs), other players are unable to for other reasons, so the purpose of the recording then isn't to accumulate video of the game, even though that's a nice side effect with what we get. And there's no guarantee I'll even find the time to do the magic anyway.

The purpose of the recording is to get a log of all chat in the game that's spoken between the two teams, and preferably all team chat too. We also get all server settings that are sent to clients. A server-side recording would give us all server settings, as well. Why do we need this stuff?

Look at some of the other things I want done, too. I really want a representative from each team, preferably every player in the game, to meet in #afl where aflbot will log the chat. #armagetron isn't good enough, unless I send aflbot over there. I realize there's several loggers running in #armagetron already.

Most games aren't going to have problems. They should run smoothly, more or less, and nobody will have any complaints, and we move on to the next game. But what do we do when there is a problem in a game? When problems develop, it usually winds up looking something like "he said <this>" and "but he did <this>", and we'll have such a mess of everybody's different points of view that there's no way to sort it out based on what people say about the game. So we need some way to see into the game, and the events leading up to the game, and that's what the recording provides.

When it comes to conduct inside the game, actual light cycle maneuvering, the only recordings that will work are recordings made in 0.3.0, because those can be played back in a client that has a hud map and all cycles can be seen. When it comes to what people say, server logs are the best, but if there's a recording from both teams, server logs aren't needed.

So the reason you want to make a recording for your team is to ensure that your team has an honest and complete account of the game that doesn't depend on point of view. In the event that there is a problem, you want to be able to say "Look at the recording I made" so that your team will come out on top. Since we're not expecting problems most of the time, the recordings will mostly be for reference. So you may ask then, why don't we just worry about recording games where we anticipate problems?

Because first and foremost, we can't anticipate when problems will happen that will require a recording. Secondly, and this is a bit subtle, we need to be able to look through previous recordings that include a given team or player or server. A person's past conduct is largely an indicator of their present and future conduct. It is possible that a person might behave badly once and only once, and without an account of their previous behavior, we might be quick to rush to bad judgement. Third, and this is even more subtle, when the problem is with a particular server, we need some way to sanity check the server's settings. If a player complains that a server has increased rubber, we'll see that in the recordings. There are a few settings we won't see in the recordings, but with enough recordings we can indirectly determine an approximation of those settings.

I'm not saying anybody's going to cheat. Quite the contrary, I think there's a good group of players signed up, and cheating is going to be highly unlikely, if at all. But there's a lot that can happen that's not cheating but still makes the game unfun. I think that on balance, wanting one player out of 10 to make a recording and post it for each game is an acceptable minimum load so we can have a little insurance in the event that a problem does happen, and we can avoid having problems blow out of all proportion by having an objective account we can view.

So with all that said, you team captains need to designate a player for each game that will make a recording. It's ok if a player who's playing the game makes the recording, there's no requirement that it be made by a spectator. You may need to make that designation for each individual game based on who shows up, or just do it yourself. It's awfully nice that z-man makes recordings on his server, and I appreciate that he did that for you guys (and I certainly hope you appreciate it too), but you really need to have your own. It's perfectly ok for a game that plays on z-man's server to show three recordings, one from z-man, and then one from each team. It's perfectly ok to wind up with 11 recordings of the game. But as we saw with rico, even having a designated recorder can break down. So a little redundancy can go a long way here.

I'm willing to accept server-side recordings, but I'd like a client-side recording to go with them. You are all about to watch me let two games slide without recordings because there haven't been any reported problems, and we're going to do that knowing full well that if a player from one of those teams has a problem with the next game that depends on something that happened in this game, he's got no leg to stand on. So let's hope that doesn't happen, but get recordings for the rest of the games, ok? :)
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Post by Ricochet »

Whats the settings then so you dont get idle-kicked, so I can record while in spec mode? For games I play its no problem...
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Post by p4 »

Code: Select all

IDLE_KICK_TIME: Time in seconds after which an inactive player is kicked (default: 0)
IDLE_REMOVE_TIME: Time in seconds after which an inactive player is removed from the game (default: 0)
it was set to 600 (by default?) when you were kicked... ;( now i use 1800 (15mins of idle) but i'll disable it when we will play @ CTserver

well done Xs cya in germany this time ;]
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Post by DDMJ »

UT2 beat UT1.

MVP of our game was Luzifer with a total of 1.5/1.5 votes :shock:. But yea, he was MVP.

I could make a site with the AFL results and schedules and tables and times and screenshots and recordings and all that stuff if you'd like.
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Post by Lucifer »

DDMJ wrote:UT2 beat UT1.
Minor note: UT1 is now Matado Core. They finally figured out a name. I haven't yet updated everything to reflect that, but new content is showing it, like the table I put on the July Results page. :)
MVP of our game was Luzifer with a total of 1.5/1.5 votes :shock:. But yea, he was MVP.
So you had one and a half people vote? How'd you manage that?
I could make a site with the AFL results and schedules and tables and times and screenshots and recordings and all that stuff if you'd like.
That's very nice, but why not just help with the wiki pages? :) I think we need a dedicated app for this.

I've made two decisions, one that regards the fall season.

First, z-man is now a judge. :) Since he's already there with his server and all.... ;) (this is what you registered for when you turned 18, doncha know)

Second, the fall season doesn't happen unless we have a dedicated app to handle this. Which means I'll probably have to write one, since I've already thoroughly canvassed open source apps (and I'm not about to go with someone's proprietary app). Anybody wanting to do this, just remember: python! :)
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Post by Hoax »

CT Vs ¦X¦ 'Confirmation'...

1st match was 100-90 something to x
2nd was 100-60 something to x

'MVP' is $ubzero

I think ed will post the logs...


On another note; Why does the MVP have to come from the winning team specifically. Maybe not explicity but the wiki says that the mvp 'should' come from the winning team. Most of us dissagreed.
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Post by Lucifer »

Well, the MVP doesn't have to come from the winning team, but I don't see it making sense that he comes from the losing team. How valuable can a player be on a team that lost? ;) Probably need some explanation for why a player from the losing team gets the MVP award, something like "The rest of his team sucked, but he managed to hold us to a small win, otherwise we'd have had a big win".
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Post by Legit »

yeah first match was 100-80 second was 100-50.. Sumthin like that.
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Post by Hoax »

I see your point. But basically we thought we all played pretty **** tbh. Maybe we are thinking more on the lines of 'man of the match'; but surely man of the match and most valuable player are the same thing.

If the mvp comes from the loosing team, maybe they are valuable because without them, they would have lost even more ;)

In a motorsport race, the driver the commentators award as driver of the day (or whatever), isn't always the person who won.
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Post by Lucifer »

MVP is subjective, you guys are supposed to use whatever criteria you want to pick him/her. The point of MVP is that it can't be determined automatically by the server, and by awarding it, we honor players who are a cut above the rest. So as long as you guys are trying to do that, it doesn't really matter how you pick the MVP. Compare it to alternate scenarios, like giving it to the person with the most individual points, or scanning the logs to see who took the fortress more than the rest, or trying to work out some weird statistical manipulation using fortress takes, players killed, players that didn't get into the defender, average time from arriving at the zone to taking it, and all the other weird crap we've talked about in other threads. Then throw all that out, and just vote with your heart. And go out there and try to win it for yourself. :)
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Post by Z-Man »

Lucifer wrote:First, z-man is now a judge. :) Since he's already there with his server and all.... ;)
Aww, work. That's revenge for that Triumvir thing, right?

On the recordings: I make mine with an extra client where I only do something to get rid of kick vote popups. That should allow anyone playing it back to switch to watch any player they like. I can test whether my machine is strong enough to make good recordings of all four games at once, or at least of those where no other recorder is online.

I could also re-investigate the possibility of server side game recordings where the server simply logs everything it would have sent to a imaginary client and the client playing the recording back would pretend to receive the data from a server.
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Post by Lucifer »

Heh.

Well, what we really need is a supybot plugin that'll record games. :) It can't be that hard to write up a little python script to record a game as a spectator, how complicated is the protocol? It just has to sit there and let the server talk to it, and occasionally say something back so the server doesn't disconnect an inactive client...

A solution on the server would be very useful--some day. :/ I'm more inclined to think a little bot that could be started from a terminal is more directly workable, but a lot more work to get up. Is the network layer documentation still up to date?
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Post by Z-Man »

The part that describes the data layout should be up to date. The example programs stopped working long ago, so any bits talking about how the code works probably are obsolete. What would you be trying to achieve with the external recorder? Anything beyond chat logs probably is out of reach, to create a debug recording you can play back in a regular client, you'll need to add the right "time passed", "no network data received" and "no key pressed" events between the "network data received" events that you can record.
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