Katrina

[Sabarai]

Well, my dad told me quite an acceptable explanation for the big disaster... Aren't those kind of things normally handled by the National Guard? Well, 60% of the National Guards from those states are in Iraq...

[Z-Man]

Here they say:

In early 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S., including a terrorist attack on New York City.

Makes you wonder what the third disaster was...

I'm not pointing my finger, though; currently, I live close to the Rhine that has a tendency for minor flooding every year, and a bigger one every decade. My floor is just some cm above the highest recorded water level, and I think a bit lower than the dams; so when the flood comes, it will come suddenly. I hope to have moved to higher ground before that happens, of course And also of course, the floods would be less devastating if we'd have left more flooding areas where the river could leave some of the water behind, but they're all cultivated.

[Sabarai]

Well, don't start about those things.. we also have the Rhine, but also the Meuse and the "Waal" (the 3 big rivers of operation Market Garden) and 2 more big rivers. And since over half my country is below sealevel, which is inhabited by 10 million people (5/8th of population) and also where the biggest airport, the largest port of the world and our government are, i think when a flood comes, we're quite screwed

[Tank Program]

I must say, some Americans are really stupid while others are quite brght. The full spectrum really... Just for some reason the stupid ones have money...

[Phytotron]

Yes, it is often the case that the National Guard is brought in to help with disaster relief efforts (along with FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers). I mentioned in another post about how my pop, while in the Air National Guard, helped out when a huge tornado ripped through the city here.

But there is a difference in how some cabinet positions have been brought in to this "task force" and whatnot. And of course the Fatherland Security Dept. is a new agency.

But, thing is, with respect to the Guard: The National Guard Belongs in New Orleans and Biloxi. Not Baghdad. There are some other articles on that site that may be of interest, with respect to Katrina.

And here's another one along the same lines as z-man's and Lucifer's articles: Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen?

So, you know...well, if I say anything more this will just digress again into some other arguments, so I'll restrain myself.

[Lucifer]

I skimmed that article, silly-boy, and the irony caught me. We're "paying for war in Iraq so Americans don't die at the hands of terrorists", and one of the effects is that Americans are dying at the hands of a hurricane instead.

There's a sick part of me hoping the death toll winds up being higher than the twin tower attacks' death toll, hoping Bushie will see it and figure out what his priorities really should be.

[Fonkay]

Bush wouldn't realize a stick in his eye.
He's a puppet with a powerful daddy.


The stupidest thing about this whole tragedy, is that the humanity really peeks it's ugly head. You have this huge hurricane that kills people, destroy homes and lives. And what do the people of New Orleans do? They loot stores for guns, and start killing each other.

Also the showed some woman on TV last night saying she wouldn't be happy until the South Korean Army came to New Orleans and help with the disatster. WTF?!

(sorry for any repeats, but I didn't back tracked)

[Lucifer]

The stupidest thing about this whole tragedy, is that the humanity really peeks it's ugly head. You have this huge hurricane that kills people, destroy homes and lives. And what do the people of New Orleans do? They loot stores for guns, and start killing each other.

Reminding us, of course, of our common heritage. In a situation like what those folks down in New Orleans are facing, it's jungle law, and amongst humans that means you need guns. The killing and stuff predictably doesn't strike me as being as ugly as you're portraying it, but the looting of stupid things like big screen TVs and other material goods makes no sense. And I"ll bet some people are being killed over that stuff, too. There's a certain amount of looting that makes perfect sense, though. Looting for food, batteries and radios, and other stuff that will help you to survive through the disaster.

It'd be nice if everyone just held hands and got together to survive together, but let's face it. It's not in our blood, and if that sort of behavior gets in our blood, we'll quickly become prey in the jungle, again.

Also the showed some woman on TV last night saying she wouldn't be happy until the South Korean Army came to New Orleans and help with the disatster. WTF?!

You know, it should have been written into the Declaration of Independence, but it seems like the most fundamental right in this country is the right to be stupid. Reporters really shouldn't be encouraging that sort of behavior, however.

[Lucifer]

I'm not pointing my finger, though; currently, I live close to the Rhine that has a tendency for minor flooding every year, and a bigger one every decade. My floor is just some cm above the highest recorded water level, and I think a bit lower than the dams; so when the flood comes, it will come suddenly. I hope to have moved to higher ground before that happens, of course And also of course, the floods would be less devastating if we'd have left more flooding areas where the river could leave some of the water behind, but they're all cultivated.

This reminds me of a flooding incident that happened a number of years ago here in Austin. Or, nearby, really. We had some really heavy rains (that I believe were thrown our way by hurricanes in the gulf, but I could be wrong about that) and the rivers and creeks started flooding, predictably. So, the Lower Colorado River Authority (better known as the LCRA), found themselves in a position where if a certain dam blocking a certain part of the Colorado River that made a certain luxurious lake were to overflow, the whole dam would give. It was a very real danger at the time.

The problem was that down below the dam, in an area generally referred to as the "flood plain", a fairly large group of very rich people had decided to build their houses there, so they could be right on the river with all their fancy boats and crap. You know, have big expensive parties for all their affluential friends and compare penis sizes and wallet sizes.

So, the LCRA was faced with opening the floodgates and flooding the "flood plain", destroying all these rich, affluential homes, or not opening the floodgates, severely flooding some lesser-income homes, and potentially having the dam burst in what would have been the biggest disaster to ever strike here in Austin.

So, they opened the floodgates and wiped out the rich neighborhood.

So the rich boys and girls complained loudly about how the LCRA didn't have the right to decide that. I remember seeing footage of the actual guy that made the decision to open the flood gates showing people the layout of the land around the dam, and saying "So we opened the flood gates and the water filled the flood plain, which is what it was supposed to do." I could hear him thinking "You stupid idiot, why did you build on the flood plain to begin with?"

Now it's law that you can't build on the flood plain. Imagine that.

[Fonkay]

In a situation like what those folks down in New Orleans are facing, it's jungle law, and amongst humans that means you need guns. The killing and stuff predictably doesn't strike me as being as ugly as you're portraying it, but the looting of stupid things like big screen TVs and other material goods makes no sense. And I"ll bet some people are being killed over that stuff, too. There's a certain amount of looting that makes perfect sense, though. Looting for food, batteries and radios, and other stuff that will help you to survive through the disaster.

You're saying that people killing each other is more exceptable behaviour than looting? Evacuation from the arena there was haulted after gun shots as well.

And yes, the looting for lack of food makes sense, that's why I didn't mention it.

[Lucifer]

You're saying that people killing each other is more exceptable (sic) behaviour than looting? Evacuation from the arena there was haulted after gun shots as well.

Um, no, and I don't really like people trying to put words in my mouth.

I'm saying that the killing behavior and territorial stuff that's currently showing in New Orleans is to be expected, and that if you want to eliminate that type of behavior, then we (as a race) will lose the ability to maintain a viable civilization and will have no choice but to sink back into the wilderness as lesser beasts.

I realize that the fundamental concept that makes civilization possible is cooperation, yet I try to keep in mind that for many more tens of thousands of years (or more, whatever) we were wild beasts, and the wild beast is always just below the surface, even in a "civilized" man.

So why is that ugly to you? It is the true face of humanity. It has always been, and will always be. We are not alpha predators, and we survive anyway.

[Phytotron]

With respect to the looting and violence....

Like Lucifer said, it's understandable that people would loot things like survival supplies and clothing, and my guess is that's mostly what's being looted. These cities were already, prior to Katrina, full of some damn poor people; the majority, in fact. So when some hurricane comes ripping through and destroys or sweeps away everything that these people owned (what little they had in the first place), when they no longer have a home or anything, when all the stores are also ruined and they don't have any money to buy anything anyway (and what they do have they're going to need to try to rebuild their lives again), and in the case of New Orleans are essentially trapped within the city, can you blame them for picking some crap out of a flooded store?

The rest is, well, human nature outside the constraints of the Leviathon, as Hobbes noted. And again, consider the situation. These people's lives have just been destroyed. Shock and despair, coupled with helplessness and heat, leads to tempers flaring. That's just how people work.

Now, of course, this is just the explanation, not condonation of violence or theft for no other purpose but material acquisition. But it was bound to go down. All we can do, really, is wait until things are cleaned up more and brought more under control and the Leviathon steps back in to quell all that activity.

(Of course, there's also the question of how truly prevasive and prevalant this activity is. Unless you're a boneheaded naif, you should know that the media have a tendency to hype certain things up beyond their reality. Just an example: in the 1990's violent crime decreased 20%, but media coverage of it increased 600%. Whether there's a similar case here, I have no idear, but skepticism is always warranted.)

[Fonkay]

The stupidest thing about this whole tragedy, is that humanity really peeks it's ugly head.

I know it's human nature.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. That's why I asked if that was what you meant, and didn't jump down your throat saying how you were wrong.

[Phytotron]

Also the showed some woman on TV last night saying she wouldn't be happy until the South Korean Army came to New Orleans and help with the disatster. WTF?!

Hey, what with all the US Guardsmen/women in Iraq and Afghanistan, and all the greedy-ass pirate contractors over there as well, why not get help from the South Korean Army (if they offered, of course)? They're better peacekeepers than US military, anyway.*

Now, I don't get why this woman picked out the South Korean Army specifically, or why she won't be happy until they help out, but ok.


* Before someone jumps on me, this comment isn't necessarily a slam against the US military. It's simply a fact—and military commanders will agree—that the US military doesn't train for peacekeeping. Contrast that with Canada, for example, which has over the past couple decades transformed virtually its entire military into a peacekeeping force.

[Lucifer]

Now, I don't get why this woman picked out the South Korean Army specifically, or why she won't be happy until they help out, but ok.

Isn't it obvious? We've been helping the South Koreans deal with their own natural disaster (the North Koreans) for 50 years! It's time they came and helped us with our own.

(Nevermind that the Korean army leaving to help us would probably be enough to provoke the completion of the Great Korean Natural Disaster)