Windows 8 General Discussion

[Phytotron]

Wal-Mart

BOOOOOOOOOO!!!

He realized that every game he wanted to play....

And now there's even Steam for Linux. There's also some speculation, or even already preliminary realization, that Steam on Linux will push video card manufacturers to be better about Linux drivers support.

Still, with respect to Wine, while I'm not a PC gamer*, stuff I've happened across on the web seems to indicate a lot of people find Wine a little too unstable or glitchy for regular gaming, and so they keep a dual boot to Windows for gaming only. But maybe that's the "hard core" gamers. I dunno.

* Yet. Seeing these Steam sales is making me want to grab an inexpensive video card for this machine (currently just Intel integrated), depending—I don't know anything about them yet, like what would be sufficient at a reasonable price, not to mention Linux support. Even before that, I was wanting to try some older "classics" I never played, never having had a Windows PC, like Grim Fandango, Monkey Island, Myst, Half-Life, and foremost Omikron: The Nomad Soul. I figure the integrated video should handle those, assuming they work under compatibility mode. 'Course, once I list those I think about how much time it would take to play them and wonder if I'd ever even get to the more recent games, heh. Anyhoo.

I have switched 6 people in the last 2 weeks to Linux

Distros that mimic old version of Windows, I'm betting.

Oh well "Windows 7" is fine for me, i see no reason to change

It's the least-worst version they made to that point. It's almost tolerable. Still sucks, though. I haven't tried 8 yet.

[compguygene]

In regards to what Linux distros I have switched people to, they are not PC looking ones. Because I am these people's primary support and I installed Linux for 5 of 6 of them, they are all running XUbuntu 12.04. I prefer to use the Long Term Support releases of Ubuntu. XUbuntu was chosen because it avoids the resource hogging Unity interface and uses the XFCE interface which is not the absolutely most efficient, but a nice compromise between efficient and well-supported and easy to install. Also, I have had the most easy success with installing XUbuntu compared to any other distro I have tried thus far.
For the record, I also use Precise Puppy, which is a USB/RAMdisk distro based on Ubuntu 12.04.

[Phytotron]

Yeah, but Xubuntu, despite having a dock, is still more like a Windows interface, isn't it? It has a "task bar"-like panel into which windows are minimized, has a "system tray" type area, has a "start" menu, the applications menu (File, Edit, etc.) is integrated in the application window, right? Same for Puppy Linux, from what I've seen. They're just variations on theme, the theme being a Windows-like interface. That's what I'm referring to.

Have you used a Mac much? I wonder if people who haven't, who've always been Windows users, don't notice the similarities as easily. You know, the pictures of Joe Biden smiling thing. (Likewise for some of the 'bugginess' and whatnot. They're so used to it in Windows that when they move to Linux they think it's not so bad, but compared to OSX it's pretty bad.)

[Z-Man]

I find OSX terrible to use. Top reasons (based on Tiger):
1. There is no good, standard way to switch between different windows of the same application.
2. XCode opens a ton of windows, one for each source file you open and a few others. Bad enough on its own, then see 1.
3. The doc limits the number of applications you can conveniently launch, if you have more (say, a game collection).
4. In the terminal application, some keys will result in multiple characters being entered, none of them the one you wanted. Probably a fixable encoding error (input sends and utf8 sequence, terminal interprets it as latin-1), but it should not happen by default.
5. The German keyboard layout is non-standard for no good reason. May be a Powerbook only problem, but still. Also Powerbook only, many PC laptops do the same silly thing: The key at the bottom left is supposed to be CTRL, not your silly FN key. I need to reliably fint CTRL with my pinkie.
The one thing it's doing better than Windows is the application menu at the top of the screen. The one thing it does better than all Linux UIs is standardised keyboard shortcuts for standard operations and standardised menu layouts.
So there. I maintain that you only find OSX better because you're used to it, because you arranged yourself with its flaws, found ways around them, rearranged your workflow, just like I arranged myself with the flaws of Linux and Windows.

Oh yeah, Windows 8. I considered briefly getting it now while the upgrade option is cheap and I had to reinstall the PC anyway, but didn't go with it. No significant advantage over 7, IMHO, and I despise the idea that all MS UIs now need to look the same no matter what input method the device uses. And that as the reference input device, they picked inaccurate touch controls on tiny phone screens.

[Jonathan]

Ah, let me try to defend OS X a little.

1. There is no good, standard way to switch between different windows of the same application.

There's cmd-` for quick cycling and Exposé to spot a particular window (not too helpful if it's all tiny text, or when it arranges fullscreen windows side by side; newer versions have improved). The Window menu can also help. Although I suppose you could be faster.

2. XCode opens a ton of windows, one for each source file you open and a few others. Bad enough on its own, then see 1.

Xcode 4 insists on being a browser. Supports windows and tabs; doesn't open new ones unless asked.

3. The doc limits the number of applications you can conveniently launch, if you have more (say, a game collection).

Can use folders, although the standard menu wasn't ideal. Can use a grid now. There's also the very helpful Spotlight and now Launchpad.

4. In the terminal application, some keys will result in multiple characters being entered, none of them the one you wanted. Probably a fixable encoding error (input sends and utf8 sequence, terminal interprets it as latin-1), but it should not happen by default.

Fixed now.

5. The German keyboard layout is non-standard for no good reason. May be a Powerbook only problem, but still. Also Powerbook only, many PC laptops do the same silly thing: The key at the bottom left is supposed to be CTRL, not your silly FN key. I need to reliably fint CTRL with my pinkie.

I manage to fint it almost as easily on such keyboards.

So what can I say. It did take a while to mature, more so on points that people like you consider important. Apple's philosophy is to satisfy a majority, who happen to be garden-variety users. They're also good at leaving parts they don't consider important out, so they can focus on making a forest, even if it means missing some trees. Power users do okay, but I guess Linux power users (who have always been first in defining the Linux experience) are better off staying where they are.

[Z-Man]

Ah, let me try to defend OS X a little.

1. There is no good, standard way to switch between different windows of the same application.

There's cmd-` for quick cycling

Oh. I'll try that.

Exposé to spot a particular window (not too helpful if it's all tiny text

Yeah, lots of code windows with text at the smallest comfortable font size...

As for the rest, well, doesn't help much if I can't get the fixed/improved version on PPC (I haven't checked individually, but XCode 4 definitely is out of reach), and IIRC Phytotron also never had an Intel Mac, so he would have been affected by the same issues. But he wasn't because, and that's my thesis here, he adapted his usage patterns around them or never encountered them in the first place (the console problem, for example).

I manage to fint it (CTRL) almost as easily on such keyboards.

Emphasis mine. I can adapt to it, too, but combined with the other two keyboard related problems, it simply forces me to think very hard for every non-letter keystroke, at least for the first couple of minues every session. That's no fun.

[delinquent]

The problem I have with mac is that it's paraded as something that its not. Remember when they said macs didn't get viruses? I don't know about the US, but here in the UK that was actually advertised on national television, which I and many others had already proven incorrect.
Then, there was the saying "macs never get old". Forgive me for being an arse, but macs are some of the most unreliable machines (in terms of upgrading) that I have ever come across. Admittedly, apps that work on os9 also work on osx, but the power of the ******* is so limited that it's like pulling a fifth wheel caravan with a mini cooper.

Apart from that, there's the issue of pricing. I saw a machine in my apple store not so long ago that had a windows based counterpart valued at £350. Apple had it priced at £2,500. Doesn't that seem a little odd to you? Oh, and nowadays macs use intel chips, which means more time spent making them compatible with mac machines... which means higher ******* prices. Oh, and lets not forget that mac towers rarely come with monitors, mice, keyboards and other peripherals that come as standard with most windows/linux based machines.

As it stands, I equate Mac machines to the BMW 3 series. Expensive, good looking, and spends most of it's time with it's covers off and it's parts hanging out.

[compguygene]

I do see your point, Pyhto. I have used a Mac before, I was given an old Power PC based one a few years ago and used it just for another computer to use the web in our household. I did come upon an article about Macubuntu which will give you the specific directions to install MacUbuntu, which is a skin for Ubuntu to make it much more Mac like, as well as a few additional directions. Perhaps that would ease your user experience on Ubuntu. The article does appropriately call this a "poor man's Mac", but perhaps this could serve as a good compromise for you.

[Jonathan]

As for the rest, well, doesn't help much if I can't get the fixed/improved version on PPC (I haven't checked individually, but XCode 4 definitely is out of reach), and IIRC Phytotron also never had an Intel Mac, so he would have been affected by the same issues. But he wasn't because, and that's my thesis here, he adapted his usage patterns around them or never encountered them in the first place (the console problem, for example).

What I'm saying is that you are the oddball if you run into all of those issues/shortcomings, as real as they are. Your opinion is valid for your purposes, but wouldn't mean a thing to most users. It doesn't help that the most computer-literate people have by far the most visible presence on the Internet. That's the crux I was trying to get to, even if I argue about every little thing now.

I should add that Xcode 3 could operate in 'few' windows. At least you could manage a collection of files in a tab-like fashion in the main window. But that doesn't change its nature.

I manage to fint it (CTRL) almost as easily on such keyboards.

Emphasis mine. I can adapt to it, too, but combined with the other two keyboard related problems, it simply forces me to think very hard for every non-letter keystroke, at least for the first couple of minues every session. That's no fun.

When I say "almost as easily" I mean I get it right the vast majority of the time without thinking about it. I can't speak for German keyboards.

Speaking of keys, you're missing many letters lately. How'd that happen?

*********************

The problem I have with mac is that it's paraded as something that its not. Remember when they said macs didn't get viruses? I don't know about the US, but here in the UK that was actually advertised on national television, which I and many others had already proven incorrect.

Example? It's always been incredibly hard to contract anything. Things can happen if you're unlucky and/or stupid, but it's rather unlikely. Whenever it comes up there is a disproportionate reaction followed by nothing.

Then, there was the saying "macs never get old".

Second-hand prices are most inflated. Somehow they can easily become so hopeless (even if it's primarily software) that many Windows users end up getting a new one. Yes, I've seen that happen, and that's the crux again. Perhaps you know to avoid that, but what if someone doesn't or doesn't want to care so much? Beyond that I can't defend what someone else has said somewhere at some time. In fact I have complained on these forums that the compatibility window is reduced somewhat artificially, putting anything older than about 5 years at risk, even if it still has a lot of life in it.

Apart from that, there's the issue of pricing. I saw a machine in my apple store not so long ago that had a windows based counterpart valued at £350. Apple had it priced at £2,500. Doesn't that seem a little odd to you?

Yes. I haven't seen anything nearly as extreme. Show me, show me that they were true counterparts, and show me how common 600% overpricing is. Or just move the goalpost somewhere realistic, and I'll probably largely agree. I'll say that Macs have going for them that you don't just pay for the hardware. And because Apple has so few models, it's hard to find a fitting Mac counterpart to every 'PC', which could be a pretty good reason if you didn't abuse it to find the worst possible example. The remainder is overpricing.

Oh, and nowadays macs use intel chips, which means more time spent making them compatible with mac machines... which means higher ******* prices.

Macs became 'PC'-like hardware-wise, not the other way around.

Oh, and lets not forget that mac towers rarely come with monitors, mice, keyboards and other peripherals that come as standard with most windows/linux based machines.

Of all Macs, only the mini (not exactly a tower) comes without a keyboard and a mouse. Of all Macs, only the mini and Pro don't come with a monitor. I'm not sure what's so disastrous about a few models that need existing peripherals or an additional investment. If you want to pick on one, though, you should really pick on the Mac Pro.

Ugh. I'm done for now. We can keep arguing, but I don't believe I have the most biased position here.

[Z-Man]

What I'm saying is that you are the oddball if you run into all of those issues/shortcomings, as real as they are. Your opinion is valid for your purposes, but wouldn't mean a thing to most users. It doesn't help that the most computer-literate people have by far the most visible presence on the Internet. That's the crux I was trying to get to, even if I argue about every little thing now.

Well, that may be true.

Speaking of keys, you're missing many letters lately. How'd that happen?[/quote]One factor would be the OS update which disabled the spellchecker without me noticing. The other one may be a slightly faulty keyboard on the main PC.

[Phytotron]

MacUbuntu, which is a skin for Ubuntu to make it much more Mac like, as well as a few additional directions. Perhaps that would ease your user experience on Ubuntu.

Yep, I'm familiar with Macbunutu. First, it's been out of development and support for a couple years, so forget that. Second, it's almost entirely cosmetic and incomplete at even that. So, I don't really see the point. I mean, what difference does it make if the icons look the same or there's a little apple logo up in the corner? It kinda reminds me of the old Windows-like Appearance themes for OS 8.5/9. They didn't actually change the functionality of anything, just made the windows and icons look like Win 3.1 or 95 (i.e., foogly).

On the other hand, recall this post where I reference some Kubuntu modifications that do actually bring some of the OSX functionality into play. Still haven't got around to trying that, but I hope to eventually.

As I've mentioned before, it's not the superficial cosmetics in which I'm interested. And I can adapt to some things done differently, provided they're done well. But there are some particular functional elements I do think OSX does better—or if you don't want to accept that, as Z-Man won't, then at least those which I prefer.

[ConVicT]

Well i have now tried windows 8 and hate it !
I thought the whole point of upgrades was to make it more convenient and user friendly, not the complete opposite.

My dad just bought a new computer which came with windows 8 (he's a total computer noob, but can work windows 7 without any help from me at all) but with this, he calls me every 15 minutes with questions, one of which was "how the f**k do find my control panel, son?"
So i wouldn't recommend it to coffin dodgers, or, people who like convenience.

[Bytes]

I've had win 8 installed now for about a couple of months now. It a bit of a see saw to use. You alternate finding things which work much better, like win-key to metro, click to launch (yes I do find the initial stages of metro interface useful), to thing that aren't so great (like what the hell is shutdown doing in settings? Took me about 15 mins to find after an internet search).

Part of the problem is that windows has never changed, and we've got used to not adapting. I use linux mint (which I know is quite windows like) and imo large portions of it are more similar to win 7 than win 8 is. There is a learning curve different to any other win os upgrades, some things are completely different. My problem was that people were confusing intuition with learning, just because they'd never had to change before. Yes there are some exceptions but on the whole it doesn't take long to get used to.

Just as a last point yes I do think it could have been done better. But then the whole win os has been looking for an overhaul for a while now in my opinion. They've finally had the balls to make some changes even though the majority of people will whigne that it's not precisely the same as every other previous edition. Hopefully now they've taken the plunge they might do better on the next one.

[compguygene]

I recently started to use Cairodock and have been very happy with it. That could replace the "fugly taskbar" as you call it.

[Phytotron]

Yeah, Cairo/GLX-Dock, Docky, and the Ubuntu launcher are all preferable alternatives to the typical Windows and Linux style taskbar. Even the Windows 7 integrated taskbar/launcher is better than the typical Linux taskbar, which of course mimics the older Windows type.

What interface are you using Cario/GLX-Dock along with? Or are you using it as an entire interface all its own? I tried the latter, but couldn't quite get everything I wanted from it. Plus a few other little things that irked me.

Seeing these Steam sales is making me want to grab an inexpensive video card for this machine (currently just Intel integrated), depending—I don't know anything about them yet, like what would be sufficient at a reasonable price, not to mention Linux support.

Yikes, nevermind. I didn't realise how expensive video cards even just adequate for gaming are, let alone ones for higher-end performance. You could buy a brand new console for less than some of even the mid-range ones. I, on the other hand, was thinking something more along the lines of $50 or so, but apparently nothing in that range, even used, would be sufficient, and may even be worse than the integrated. Oh well.

Then again, like I said, who knows whether I'd even have the time to play those games and justify the expense (plus Steam), anyway. I have a Dreamcast I bought two summers ago (2011) that I still haven't even played. I still have N64 and Gamecube games I haven't gotten around to, heh. Not to mention older 2D stuff. Too many games I want to play, and it's not even one of my main interests or pastimes. Not enough hours in the day.