Ladle 24 Voting Discussion

[DDMJ]

sine:
it is wise that we undergo all the changes now
to prevent certain problems from arising in the future

that's not necessarily true because what if the tournament doubles in size one day and we get close to 32 teams, then we'll need 3 days (perhaps) to run the tournament, but to jump ahead to that assumption now is silly since 3 days would be too spread out

[sinewav]

I agree with DDMJ. There will be a point where it's completely unreasonable to have the Ladle be a one day event; probably just before we reach 32 teams. But that's still a way off (I think). In the meantime we can try to manage our time problem by tweaking some factors. Settings like LIMIT_TIME, earlier starts, and best of 3 instead of 5 are all things that can help tidy the competition up enough so we can move forward. If that doesn't work, then maybe we can dig deeper and address the structure of the tournament.

I think by the time it's impossible to complete the competition in one day, something like League play will overtake the Ladle as an "alternative" (hint) competition - but not necessarily replacing the Ladle.

[1200]

that's not necessarily true because what if the tournament doubles in size one day and we get close to 32 teams, then we'll need 3 days (perhaps) to run the tournament, but to jump ahead to that assumption now is silly since 3 days would be too spread out

32 teams is just adding one extra round from having 16 teams which is 5 rounds in total. Technically we achieved this in Ladle 23 & the Bowl in one day.

I think what 2020 is trying to say is consider everything that can be considered now that would be consistent even if the number of teams grow. (eg. number of matches played, time_limit etc.) And it doesn't hurt to think if the same settings would make sense in a 32 team or 64 team scenario.


PS: /me is fantasizing a strictly one day Ladle event even if the team number grows to 1024 teams & 10 rounds of play, it could be done in 10 hours! Perhaps it could be like a relay marathon where people from different countries sub on & off as the tourny rolls along....

[2020]

heheh
that's the way 1200
heheh
enjoy the view

and yes wrt future-proofing
seems like we can consider a possible structure which accounts for larger numbers of teams
since i don't have enough feedback on my post of alternative timings
i don't even know if people have checked it out...
i will describe a variation here:

we play the finals on the last sunday of the month
the final block of 8 teams fighting it out to the finalist
one game every hour
starting at 6pm gmt and finishing at 8pm gmt
(since people are suggesting the final start is too late as it is)

this follows the second last sunday of the month
the penultimate block of 64 teams fighting it out to be one of the final 8
one game every hour
starting at 6pm gmt and finishing at 8pm

this follows the third last sunday of the month
with upto 512 teams fighting it out to get to the next penultimate block
one game every hour
starting at 6pm and finishing at 8pm

this structure allows for upto 4096 teams playing over a month
with any one sunday consisting of a maximum of three games

nice and relaxed
and we can tighten it up if we want to try to host a tight tournament in one day
with eg 30min rounds...

[sinewav]

this structure allows for upto 4096 teams playing over a month...
and we can tighten it up if we want to try to host a tight tournament in one day
with eg 30min rounds...

Right. We get it. Again, when we decide to split up the Ladle into 2 or more days, this is probably what will happen anyway. The question is to do it now or later. That's why we are voting on "should the Ladle be one day or two."

And tightening up the bouts is what we're trying to do right now!

Ok. So far we've covered time, seeding (which kind of calls for mandatory 3rd place bouts), and there is still some question about recruiting players on Ladle day (a vote that fell through the cracks last time).

Are we missing any other topic?

[custang]

All meets are one match to 200 points ... ( yes / no )
Number of matches in Finals ... ( best of 3 / best of 5 )
Ladle should be Saturday instead of Sunday ... ( yes / no )
Should the Ladle start earlier? ... ( yes / no )
If Ladle starts earlier, how much? ... ( 30 min / 45min / 1 hour )
Use LIMIT_TIME to stop matches from running late? ... ( yes / no )
If LIMIT_TIME, then how many minutes? ... ( 10 / 12 / 15)
Ladle should be one day or two? ... ( one / two )
If Lade is two days, then which? ... ( Sat-Sun / consecutive Sundays )

How is this format? Am I missing anything? Can it be said better? I looks intimidating, but we need to sort this out some how.

What About:
One match, first to 200 points ... ( yes / no )
Number of matches in Final ... ( best of 3 / best of 5 )
Ladle should be played on ... ( Saturday / Sunday )
Should the Ladle start earlier? ... ( yes / no )
If Ladle starts earlier, how much? ... ( 1 hour / 2 hours / 3 hours+ )
Use LIMIT_TIME to stop matches from running late? ... ( yes / no )
If LIMIT_TIME, then how many minutes? ... ( 10 / 13 / 16+ )
Ladle should be one day or two? ... ( one / two )
If Lade is two days, then which? ... ( Sat-Sun / consecutive Sundays / other )
How should Servers be picked? ... ( Random / Seedings / Worst team picks first (vice versa) / ladle winner picks the servers after teams picked / other)
How should the brackets be picked? ... ( Random / Seedings / Other )

Well thats what i could think of atm, what do you think?
Should be hurry up and get teams to vote? Or are we gonna wait till the last minute? Then nothing is going to happen.

[ed]

A problem we have here is that the answer to some questions will depend heavily on the answers of another.

eg. If it was voted upon that matches would be up to 200 points therefore best of 1 match instead of best of 3, then the limit_time argument may not be necessary as the time issue would no longer be such a problem.
Truth is, this change would have a large impact on the whole timing of the competition and without trying it out we will not know for sure if it improves things.

Maybe we could have 2 rounds of voting. ie round 1, something like:

Code: Select all

1. All meets are one match to set number of point... ( yes / no )
2. Number of matches in Finals ... ( same as all other rounds / longer )
3. Ladle should be Saturday instead of Sunday ... ( yes / no )
4. Should the Ladle start earlier? ... ( yes / no )
5. Ladle should be one day or two? ... ( one / two )

Round 2:

if 1. was voted yes
number of points to play till - ( 150, 200, 250 )

if 4. was voted yes
what time:
5 GMT, 6GMT. 7GMT

etc, etc.
I've given little thought to the questions here, just an example.
So the main structure of the next 3 ladles could be voted upon in round 1 and the finer details a couple of days later in voting round 2.
Otherwise, I can't see each team being able to get their accurate intentions across.

[sinewav]

Maybe we could have 2 rounds of voting. ie round 1, something like:

Yeah I was thinking about something similar. Any one of the choices could have a major impact on the game. If we do two rounds, when should each start and stop?

I guess we can start the first round of voting as soon as we make a new wiki page for L-24 (not something I know how to do, heh). And maybe the second round follows the last week before the event? Thoughts?

Well thats what i could think of atm, what do you think?

I think we should avoid using thinks like "other" or "+" because that just leads to more discussion. We're trying to work out the choices here so we don't run into that problem. Make sense?

[DDMJ]

How should Servers be picked? ... ( Random / Seedings / Worst team picks first (vice versa) / ladle winner picks the servers after teams picked / other)

I'm pretty sure we agreed that the way I've been doing the brackets is the fairest. If half of the teams that signup are Euro, then half the servers are Euro. Also, as we move closer to the finals, (historically) more reliable and better servers are used.

[custang]

I think we should avoid using thinks like "other" or "+" because that just leads to more discussion. We're trying to work out the choices here so we don't run into that problem. Make sense?

When someone puts down a "+" or "other" they should be expected to put down a number or answer.

[sinewav]

When someone puts down a "+" or "other" they should be expected to put down a number or answer.

I know. That's what this thread is for. We figure out what we want to vote on, then we vote on it. If you don't like any of the current options, please post your own. We don't want to vote and have the results be "2-yes, 2-no, and 4-something else (but all them different)". If that happens we're right back where we started.

NOTE: As discussed previously, a tie results in no change; so the above scenario would mean nothing happens.

[2020]

sorry to belabour the point
sine
and well said
ed

systems thinking is tricky precisely because it involves loops in time
whereas forums and polls etc are linear and snap-shot
add to that a collective composed of individuals who are temporarily limited by their own perspective
and things get messy

surely there's something out there that we can use that puts all these things in a non-temporal thread?
something better than the deliberatorium which was suggested for the last one...?

[we are trapped by the structures of language and the organisational structures we use to convey our thinking
hence we must suit the structure and protocol we adopt to the task at hand]

[Goodygumdrops]

I think voting on so many things at once is silly. It is very possible with voting on this many things to enact sweeping changes that many players will probably be unaware of until the day of the ladle. I realize that a lot of people are unhappy with the ladle running so long and so late, but would it be possible that we focus on just one or two timing-related issues to vote on at this point? It doesn't seem necessary to change so much to fix things. For instance:

Should the ladle be 2 days instead of 1? (yes/no)
If 2 days, what days? (Sat, Sun/consecutive Suns)
Should ladle matches have a time limit? (yes/no)
If so, what should the time limit be? (insert choices you suckas like)

A yes vote on either one of these would probably alleviate the time issue quite a bit. Also, focusing on fewer topics would streamline discussion and voting and make potential changes less jarring to the community at-large.

[destiny]

for the voting format, what if you make a sub forum for team captains (only) to place their actual vote. you could make each point a seperate poll and put the specific options for each point. this way only team captains get to actually vote and it will be anonymous. you could run the polls seperatly this way, since some polls depend on the outcome of others.

also you can make each point that is going to be voted on a topic so that the discussion for that certain point stays there and doesn't become a bunny trail leading to other topics.



i have a suggestion on time. what if you play all the preliminary games on saturday and just the final on sunday. that gives the teams time to regenerate and bring their best game. this would solve the time issue, moving it earlier makes it hard on west coasters because its early, but i know its also late for euros. the time issue is hard due to the wide variation in time. i know for me if its any earlier on sunday i can't make it, cuz church doesn't let out before then.

also my 2 cents on the servers i think it should be half and half. here's my reasoning:
lets say a ladle had 16 teams and it was 8 euro 8 us, the servers would obviously be 4 euro 4 us. 50% of the teams are euro and us, 50% of the servers euro and us totally fair. but if we have just one variation on that 9 euro teams and 7 us teams and the servers were moved to 5 euro and 3 us, that makes 56.25% teams euro and 43.75% of the teams us, the server percentage would be 62.5% euro servers and 37.5% us servers which doesn't seem fair. i know there is the rule if there are 2 us teams then they get a us server, but if that happens then a different team should get an euro server to keep the distribution at 50%. this way all teams have an equal shot at a server in their part of the world. or at least keep the distribution of servers closer the the percentage of teams.

or have one ladle with all euro servers and the next ladle with all us servers, idk just make it fair.

[custang]

Saturday 10PM GMT!!!!!

OR just make it a Saturday in general since most people wont have work on Sundays which means they wont complain as much about it being late or it being early.