0.2.8 (beta 3 tagged)

What do you want to see in Armagetron soon? Any new feature ideas? Let's ponder these ground breaking ideas...
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Hmmm, I suggested we take this new icon and make it *the* icon for all platforms. Is there any reason we shouldn't do that? (And no, I don't think the branch needs to wait for it)

z-man: The web doesn't totally disagree with me. :) At least, it's not incompatible disagreement. Maybe I'll make a little more sense. :) If a release is to have 0 priority 5 or higher bugs, then a release candidate must meet that requirement. So a beta can have any number of known issues, and we're wanting to collect more information on those known issues and also to learn of new issues that may be marked priority 5 or higher so they can be fixed. When a beta shows no priority 5 or higher bugs, has working installers for all platforms (including the generic binary release for Linux), then we recompile that same source as a release candidate. Possibly some minor changes with sanity check (for example if we were to change out the icon at that time, or the splashscreen, or suddenly rearrange config files in an otherwise harmless manner). Then the release candidate goes out, and hopefully no new priority 5 or higher bugs are found. All installers should already work, but will be tested again. Ideally, I don't think we'd do many release candidates, where might do 10 betas instead. A release candidate, to me as a user, means that the official release is just a few weeks away, so as soon as we make a release candidate, we're going to get flooded by players still playing the last beta because they don't want to upgrade until the official release (thus rendering them not testers anymore), and also by players expecting the release to come soon. So if we have to pack up and make another release candidate, we should have a very good reason for it. (a slight note on the page you linked, the definition given was in regard to commercial software) I seem to recall MPlayer angering a lot of people by running release candidates up to #8 for a year or so, and having to apologize with each one.

About branches, I don't think HEAD is all that unintuitive. Most of our players aren't dumb, and even the ones that might be not all together are capable of understanding that CVS HEAD is the absolute latest dirty code, and that CVS snapshots are snapshots of HEAD without any sort of testing or QA attached. Ever since aabeta started up, I have encountered 0 players that think 0.2.8.0 is about to released (which is the contrary of what I encountered a few months ago, if y'all remember that....).

So, we release a beta, and doing so as soon as the branch is made is perfectly fine by me (need to tag it, of course). We direct users that the beta is the newest version, and that snapshots after the beta may be released to test specific bugfixes (say a player reports a bug with the beta, someone fixes it and makes a quick build to pass to the player to test it), but the beta is the newest official version and is the one we'll be supporting. We'll be supporting it by releasing another beta, of course. :) We also direct users that the last "stable" release is still 0.2.7.1, so unless they want to become testers for 0.2.8.0, they should install 0.2.7.1 rather than the beta. Whether that's completely accurate or not is somewhat beside the point, because the point here is to establish that that's how we'll proceed, assuming of course that that's how we want to proceed. (We might point out cheekily that the beta might be a bit more stable than the last stable version, the cvs snapshot I've been running is, in fact, more stable than 0.2.7.1, or we might say "Normally the stable release is what you should download unless you explicitly want to betatest the new version, but for this release it looks like the beta is more stable than the last stable release, and hopefully with new releases we'll be 'back to normal'")

Also, with the beta releases we might do dress rehearsal of the release process. z-man suggested higher up that a "release manager" should do the branch, tag it, then make the source tarball and distribute it to package builders. I figure that if all z-man does is whatever package he's volunteered to build and the source tarball and post them on sourceforge is good enough, the rest of us that intend to build packages can download from there and build. Tank or z-man are currently required to put up file releases, I think, but we can each post our packages somewhere for them to do so at their convenience, or possibly we might consider expanding to allow specific people to make releases (I think sourceforge allows you to designate who can make releases without explicitly making them admins).

In any case, I'm intending to do the Mandriva package and to try to build an autopackage spec file. Whether or not I'll build the generic binary linux release is going to depend on whether or not the binary built on my system will be able to function as a generic binary linux release, but we can release a beta built on my system to determine that. This depends on my own available time, though, and I still haven't had a chance to get back to making a new Mandriva snapshot.
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Post by Lucifer »

OH yeah, I forgot something. :)

Here's how rpm handles it (I've covered it before, but it doesn't hurt to repeat)

If the file is named 'armagetronad-0.2.8.0', it will be considered an older version than 'armagetronad-0.2.8.0-rc1'. So you won't be able to upgrade with the new release. However, the first file will be considered newer than 'armagetronad-0.2.8.0.rc1', which will in turn be considered newer than 'armagetronad-0.2.8.0.beta1'.

(In your minds eye, please add '.src.rpm' and '.i586.rpm' as needed to complete the filenames)

I already made the necessary corrections awhile back, and automake automatically handles it anyway. It's the GNU naming convention, I think, but I could be wrong. Redhat might have stuck their own on there, and iirc automake started as a Redhat project.
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Post by Lucifer »

Heh, last one on the subject, I swear.

Ok, the way releases are handled on sourceforge we can all upload packages to the necessary upload space. A project admin (or release manager, I'll go look in aminute and see if there is such a thing) is required to transfer those files from the upload place and mark them as releases for the project. Then it takes a day or so for the files to propogate through all the mirrors.

So, let's say z-man declares "I'll release the source tarball on Saturday, and packages need to be built and uploaded on Sunday, because Sunday night at 12am PDT (sourceforge's timezone) I'll be making the package releases. So all package builders, upload your packages on Sunday before that time." Then on Saturday he posts the source tarball. Those of us building packages will then download the source tarball on Sunday, build our packages, and upload them to sourceforge (it's anonymous ftp, the url it ftp://uploads.sourceforge.net/incoming if I'm not mistaken). Sunday night at the designated hour, z-man logs into sourceforge's admin interface, checks a few boxes, and the release is done.

Stragglers who miss the deadline would have to post the builds here so a project admin can upload and release the packages through sourceforge at their convenience.

File in sourceforge's upload space are automatically scrubbed at regular intervals if they're not associated with a release, which is why we all have to do it on the same day. Sourceforge documentation will reveal the specific timeframe needed for each day.

It's a possibility anyway. :)
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Post by philippeqc »

z-man wrote:
Luke-Jr wrote: If possible, verify that it is very clear to map designers their map filepaths MUST (bold, huge font, whatever):
- be unique!!!
- be categorized
- unless otherwise official "permission" is granted (for now), be "AuthorName/MapName-Version.xml" or "ClanName/MapName-Version.xml"
Philippe, got that? I'll also put a reminder for it in the section explaining the map settings to users, since server admins can really mess that scheme up.
Roger that, I'm updating the documentation.

And now about resources:
Luke-Jr wrote:Edit: Also, the site is currently working at http://beta.armagetronad.net/ so we don't need to worry about people being scared off for "unofficialness" anymore.
Could the resources be placed on the same server? We could use something like "http://resources.armagetronad.net". Also, I've noticed that in the config/settings.cfg, there are lots of mixed items:
"http://utopios.org/~luke-jr/programs/hexatron/maps/"
"http://aabeta.dashjr.org/resource/"
I think it would be really neat if the whole config refered to the same server name.
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Post by Luke-Jr »

Lucifer wrote:I always thought it went like this:
Sounds about right, IMHO.
Lucifer wrote:The snapshots we've been releasing have been nice, and I think people have really enjoyed having them, but we need to do something a bit more formal even for a beta. If we don't use the same source for a beta release for each platform, then what do we do when someone says "The OS X version has this problem"? How do we know which other platforms may be affected? We can't just ask other players, we have to go to the source. On the other hand, if the betas are clearly marked and each platform is compiled from the same source, then someone says "THe OS X version has this problem" and we can each fire up the game and see if the Mandriva/Gentoo/Generic LInux/Windows builds all suffer the same problem, without going to the source. That's just a contrived example to show the point. :)
People can still report problems w/ an RC. I see your point about the bug checking, tho-- easily solved by 'cvs up -D 20050730' where the date is yesterday.
z-man wrote:Alright, so we should have at least one ORGANIZED beta release. Two because the first one will have known problems.
Won't 0.2.8.0 final have known problems? ;)
z-man wrote:
Luke-Jr wrote:beta.aa.net now supports branches. (PS: any suggestions for a layperson term instead of HEAD?)
Cool. Hmm, Minefield? Latest? Anyway, I think the branch selection could use a bit of explanation.
Thought of "Latest", but it seems a bit too... inviting.
z-man wrote:About RCs:
Luke-Jr wrote:Don't we have compiled code with the version? We don't want a RC to claim it's a final... Other than that, sounds good.
Yes, we have two options there:
- Compile version 0.2.8.0_RC1 into the game. Keep the source of the RC (well, we do that anyway). Later, if the RC should become the release, change the version to 0.2.8.0 and rebuild.
- Compile version 0.2.8.0 directly into the game. Rename the packed builds to 0.2.8.0-RC1. When the RC is found to be good, rename the builds.

The first option has the advantage that the RC is a normal consistent build. The second option has the advantage that less can go wrong when a RC is made official. To me, the first option indeed sounds a bit better. The Unix build process is completely automated, and the Windows build too if K publishes his script, so the risk of something going wrong on the second build are minimal.
The second also makes it impossible for us to determine if someone is running RC1, RC2, or Final (assuming RC3=Final)
z-man wrote:Anyway, I don't want to call any version RC that has known priority 6 or higher bugs. Remember that the goal for a release was to have no priority 5 or higher bugs left. Of course, we can reach that goal by repriorizing some of the bugs :)
Simply for the sake of not confusing package managers, perhaps we can get away with calling 0.2.8 beta "RC0"?
z-man wrote:Luke, about delaying the branch because of the icon: You're not serious about this, are you???? I'ts just the Icon! Besides, any changes to that can as well be made in the branch. The main purpose of the branch is to allow dirty development to continue on the trunk, not necessarily to only allow bugfixes on the branch.
Well, I guess that could work-- the delay part was assuming "branch time == first organised snapshot/beta/RC time"
nemostultae wrote:
Luke-Jr wrote:IMHO, before we fork we need to get the icon stuff sorted out. Why should there be a separate icon for OS X?
It had to be changed because the old one used an image from the movie (which was also a different icon from the rest of the project).
The non-Mac icon sucks, too.
nemostultae wrote:And since its a mac it needs to Think Different (tm).
There's nothing special about Mac.
nemostultae wrote:About the beta builds: I could make a cron job that does the builds pretty easily. "xcodebuild Armagetron.xcodeproj" and then package it up and send it off (it probably can't layout the icons in the dmg though :( see attached).
Couldn't you copy some dot-file to save the layout? =p
nemostultae wrote:Nightly sounds too often, how much really changes in a day? How about weekly?
k does nightly, so he would probably know best =p
I think the point isn't to get changes every day, but to not wait until the next week for a change to be processed...
philippeqc wrote:
Luke-Jr wrote:Edit: Also, the site is currently working at http://beta.armagetronad.net/ so we don't need to worry about people being scared off for "unofficialness" anymore.
Could the resources be placed on the same server? We could use something like "http://resources.armagetronad.net". Also, I've noticed that in the config/settings.cfg, there are lots of mixed items:
"http://utopios.org/~luke-jr/programs/hexatron/maps/"
"http://aabeta.dashjr.org/resource/"
I think it would be really neat if the whole config refered to the same server name.
Resources are already on http://resource.armagetronad.net/resource/ (the path to allow for easier mirroring)
You're right about settings.cfg needing cleaning tho, I'll check into it sometime later today if I can.
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Post by Z-Man »

Lufifer: My mistake, I wanted the link to point out that it's not the consensus that a relase candidate has to be as hopefully-error-free as the actual release after it. That's all.

Luke: the 0.2.8.0 release will not have known bugs of priority 5 or higher. The intermediate versions from the branch until then will have plenty.
CVS -co -r <DATE> won't give you exactly the source of a snapshot, just roughly. Granted, in most cases this is enough, but if a really weird bug is reported, you'll be glad if you know you can get the exact source of the build the bug is on. One less variable to worry about.

About HEAD: how about "Bleeding Edge"? It's just a bit too long. Maybe Lucifer is right and we can trust our user's intelligence.

About versions: so Gentoo wants _pre and redhat wants .pre? Is the redhat expectation documented somewhere? Because it really sucks. Both systems don't work if the source archive is not named correctly and extracts into a folder with the right name, so unless we pack different sources (bad!), we would not be able to please both systems.
I checked with the GNU standards:
http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/
They actually say nothing about any pre or alpha versions. They suggest to use just two numbers.
The Gentoo docs are here:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/ha ... #doc_chap2

Lucifer: How did you handle the verisoning? Your AABeta snapshot is called aabeta-20050525.inst.mandriva.x86_32.rpm. Won't this be considered later than anything that starts with 0.2.8.0? Of course, the package name saves us here :)

Oh, and luckily for us, there is no gentoo ebuild for a _pre-version, the latest is for 0.2.7.1. We don't have to care about portage's ordering of releases at all. Are there any RPMs out there with possibly conflicting versions? And does OSX care? If no and if we find a pre-versioning scheme that pleases all software management systems, I think we should use the plan for the next release already now.

About Lucifer's general plan for building: sounds good. We can make some other people release managers so they can do the SF "paperwork", it's possible without making them admins. Who wants to do that? Warning: the interface is quite horrible :)

If I manage a release, I can easily spit out the source tarball, a windows source zip, raw binary builds, and generic rpms directly. Well, since I just use the build module for that, any other Unix user can, with the possible exception of the generic rpms. This part of the process only takes one minute of my time and some waiting. It's the Windows builds and the SF management that really take work which I can't do next weekend.
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Post by dlh »

lj wrote:Resources are already on http://resource.armagetronad.net/resource/ (the path to allow for easier mirroring)
You're right about settings.cfg needing cleaning tho, I'll check into it sometime later today if I can.
How does being redundant allow for easier mirroring? How about doing something like on my website, where http://armagetron.generalconsumption.org and http://www.generalconsumption.org/armagetron are the same. In my www root folder, any folder name gets converted into a sub-domain. So to get to my armagetron movies page, you could either go to http://www.generalconsumption.org/armagetron/movies/, or go to http://armagetron.generalconsumption.org/movies/.
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Post by Luke-Jr »

z-man wrote:Luke: the 0.2.8.0 release will not have known bugs of priority 5 or higher. The intermediate versions from the branch until then will have plenty.
Hmm... so how does that break using .beta20050730 until .rc20050730? (and, in this special exception due to the .pre20050730 already in use, skipping .beta20050730)
z-man wrote:CVS -co -r <DATE> won't give you exactly the source of a snapshot, just roughly. Granted, in most cases this is enough, but if a really weird bug is reported, you'll be glad if you know you can get the exact source of the build the bug is on. One less variable to worry about.
cvs up -D DATE will give all the exact same source, provided DATE is in the past.
z-man wrote:About HEAD: how about "Bleeding Edge"? It's just a bit too long. Maybe Lucifer is right and we can trust our user's intelligence.
Hmm... what do you think about Untested or Devel (!)?
z-man wrote:About versions: so Gentoo wants _pre and redhat wants .pre? Is the redhat expectation documented somewhere? Because it really sucks. Both systems don't work if the source archive is not named correctly and extracts into a folder with the right name, so unless we pack different sources (bad!), we would not be able to please both systems.
The _pre vs .pre only really matters on the package info, right? Why not use s/_/./g for RPM building? Also, I think Gentoo can probably handle either...
z-man wrote:Lucifer: How did you handle the verisoning? Your AABeta snapshot is called aabeta-20050525.inst.mandriva.x86_32.rpm. Won't this be considered later than anything that starts with 0.2.8.0? Of course, the package name saves us here :)
AABeta releases thus far have followed a predefined format as posted on another thread.
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Post by Phytotron »

z-man wrote:Maybe Lucifer is right and we can trust our user's intelligence.
I wouldn't count on it...at all. I've encountered a lot of players who have no clue as to the difference between CVS/snapshot, beta, HEAD (I don't know that one), or anything else. Half of them think there's already a completed new release out called 2.8 (and are telling everyone else to go download it).

Perhaps it's not my place, but my recommendation is to keep namings and whatnots as simple and clear -- and obvious -- as possible, and not to use any developer jargon, even if you think it sounds cool. :)

(P.S. -- I know I'm being redundant, but, will the eventual release run on 10.2.8? Puhlease, nemo.)
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Post by llaffer2 »

Just wondering, is there a windows pre-compiled version of a 2.8.0-pre version anywhere?

I recompiled on my linux box the client and server last night from the latest in CVS, and I like the look of it (and it fixes a few bugs that I found in the windows client that I'm currently using - one of the 2.7.1s).

Thanks.
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Post by philippeqc »

z-man wrote:Thanks, I'll put this in CVS in the docs folder, in a new txt subdirectory. It's sort of a preliminary solution; I hope we can get a better HTML generation system everyone can understand.
Ok neat! Could you tell me the new location for the map tutorial? I've forgotten 2 big parts:
- the experimental features
- How to submit a map

-ph

Nota: the tutorial was accessible from src/doc/ContentCreation/Howto-Maps.txt
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Post by Z-Man »

Philippe: Oh, I did not do anything yet. I kind of was wondering why I should put it into CVS in the first place and you don't do that yourself :) I probably forgot that you said sometime you already put it in, and I never noticed it in the CVS output. Just go on as before, it's fine where it is.
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Post by Lucifer »

z-man: I'll look for the docs, but they're mandriva docs that I read. As far as I know, Mandriva hasn't done any changes to rpm itself, just some of the conventions.
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Post by Lucifer »

Some links on rpm versioning:

http://www.fedoralegacy.org/wiki/index. ... Versioning

The document I read to build the mandriva rpm: (one of them)
http://qa.mandriva.com/twiki/bin/view/M ... ToAdvanced
Mandriva wrote: Sometimes, program naming schemes are good, but rpm is lost. For example, with Proftpd, Pre-releases are named with the version followed by the suffix pre and then the pre version number, like so: 1.2.0pre5. Because of string comparisons, rpm thinks that 1.2.0pre5 is newer than 1.2.0 (we know that this is not true).

To permit upgrades to newer packages, we must help rpm to know which packages are newer than others. We could use the Epoch: tag (superseding the Serial: tag) but this is dirty. You have to use another naming convention, putting the "pre" stuff in the release tag; in our example you will call the package "1.2.0-0.pre5.1mdk". Then, when 1.2.0 comes out, you'll release "1.2.0-1mdk", and this package will be able to upgrade the pre5.
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Post by Z-Man »

Luke-Jr wrote:
z-man wrote:Luke: the 0.2.8.0 release will not have known bugs of priority 5 or higher. The intermediate versions from the branch until then will have plenty.
Hmm... so how does that break using .beta20050730 until .rc20050730? (and, in this special exception due to the .pre20050730 already in use, skipping .beta20050730)
It does not. It was just an aswer to
Luke-Jr wrote:Won't 0.2.8.0 final have known problems?
Which, as I thought, was supposed to be an argument for calling all intermediate builds release candidates.

On the topic of .prexxx already in use: I checked and unfortunately, rpm considers 0.2.8.0 to be earlier than 0.2.8.0.pre, too :( So, no matter what we do, the final 0.2.8.0 release will look old to those using the RPM from aabeta (which, as I checked, has internal version 0.2.8.0.pre-something). Two possible ways out of this:
- use the epoch (it's not an abuse if we do it once): bump it up for the official release or as soon as we found a good way out of the dilemma for (like using the release count as suggested in the doc sniplet Lucifer dug out)
- Directly jump to 0.2.8.1. This would confuse and anger people who rightfully don't trust .0 -versions, however :)
Luke-Jr wrote:
z-man wrote:CVS -co -r <DATE> won't give you exactly the source of a snapshot, just roughly. Granted, in most cases this is enough, but if a really weird bug is reported, you'll be glad if you know you can get the exact source of the build the bug is on. One less variable to worry about.
cvs up -D DATE will give all the exact same source, provided DATE is in the past.
Yes, but that's not the point; you want to get the source the BUILD was done with, not just the same source as everyone else who does the checkout.
Luke-Jr wrote:
z-man wrote:About HEAD:...
Hmm... what do you think about Untested or Devel (!)?
In a sense, these apply to all snapshots, but somehow I like Devel. Way back, the unsafe releases were called that way.
Luke-Jr wrote:
z-man wrote:About versions: so Gentoo wants _pre and redhat wants .pre? ...
The _pre vs .pre only really matters on the package info, right? Why not use s/_/./g for RPM building? Also, I think Gentoo can probably handle either...
Yes, only the package info matters. I tried the sed approach right as I got notice of the problem; unfortunately, it's not that easy. The packager assumes the source unpacks into armagetronad-<version of the RPM package> which it doesn't. It may be possible to hack around that, of course, for example by pretending to apply a patch. I'll have to investigate.
Even more unfortunately, however, is that it does not matter as RPM does not handle either .pre or _pre as we'd like it to, both are considered newer than the final release.
Luke-Jr wrote:
z-man wrote:Lucifer: How did you handle the verisoning? Your AABeta snapshot is called aabeta-20050525.inst.mandriva.x86_32.rpm. Won't this be considered later than anything that starts with 0.2.8.0? Of course, the package name saves us here :)
AABeta releases thus far have followed a predefined format as posted on another thread.
Yes, but (third unfortunately), that's only the filename. RPM checks the contents of the file to determine package and version. It seems to ignore the filename itself.

Lucifer: Thanks, that bit of pasted docs seem to be helpful. I'll try to hack the .pre to releasse tag conversion in and see how it goes.

Oscilloscope: Like this guy? :) (Hehe, I knew it would be useful to keep that crash recording...)

Code: Select all

mathot:: very laggy
luke-jr: Inu you are using an old version!
luke-jr: upgrade
Inu Yasha: no
Inu Yasha: i use the 2.7.1
luke-jr: that is old
mathot:: 2.7.1 old??
luke-jr: yes
Inu Yasha: no
Inu Yasha: advanced
luke-jr: 0.2.7.1 is OLD
Inu Yasha: is the advanced
luke-jr: yes
mathot:: which on is new then?
luke-jr: Armagetron advanced 0.2.7.1 is old
luke-jr: the 0.2.8 betas
luke-jr: they're not perfect, but better than 0.2.7.1
Inu Yasha: explosion
Inu Yasha: oh
luke-jr: http://aabeta.dashjr.org
I don't complain about it (If I had found it worth complaining about, I'd done earler) because the information given here is perfectly true; nevertheless, given the low attention people pay to ingame chat which will filter out secondary details like "beta", this may have added to the confusion.

A real webpage would help here, it could say:
Download the latest stable version 0.2.7.1 here. Yes, this is the latest official stable version, no matter what other players tell you. All later versions are test prereleases, get them here, but at your own risk.

llaffer2: yes, at http://beta.armagetronad.net/ . The versions carry date stamps externally because they are unorganized snapshots from CVS, but internally, they carry a 0.2.8.0.pre version.
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