Ladle 57

[sinewav]

double post, server hang.

[-*inS*-]

For my defense and for people who thinks i "cheated" or anything like that, i joined sp 3 years ago, started playing for SP on ladle 27 or smthg like that, won 6 ladles playing in SP, i took the lead last year and spent lot of time trying to make teams/tactics better, i keep doing that now, im always trying to bring new things up like everyone does in SP, we are all improving as a team and thats what i like...

Anyways what im trying to explain you is that playing 1 time for an other team wont change what i think about SP, i feel good there, like the clan, the members, the atmosphere so i dont consider my self cheating on SP at all, it was just for 1 ladle... We all thought it would be fun to play in an "all star team" and made it to try 1 ladle... well we shouldnt have lied or use aliases, that was kind of stupid i guess but we didnt break any rules and didnt cheat ingame so what is involving our clans is kind of "personnal" i think...Anyways what is done is done lets go ahead and stop all the useless drama/argument on this...

To expand on what fofo just said, I think a lot of you have it backwards that we care so much that'd we would lie to people. I would argue you lot care more than we do. To us this was just a 1 ladle vacation, what does 1 ladle mean? Really nothing tbh, all of us have been there done that, got the t-shirt etc. Honestly I don't view anything that has transpired to be a big deal at all.

Any matter of what people refer to as "deception" will be dealt will internally, not sure why anyone else not in my clan would care about what i told them before the ladle.

The only question I can ask (aimed at lacka, sine.wav, 1200, word, Concord etc), did we somehow ruin your enjoyment of the ladle? I can understand my clan being upset with me. But really no one else has any ground to stand on here.

[Phytotron]

Yay for promoting dishonesty.

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 42#p240042

::cough::

That issue is a little different. Scroll up...[yadda yadda].

Ugh, I wasn't referencing the topic as a whole, just that specific quote and the attitude and values it reflects, which seemingly contradicted your "what's the big deal" statement. A matter of principle, not situation. To reiterate for the third or fourth time, my comments have not been directly related to whatever happened here in the Ladle, so you should have been able to put together that quoting that wasn't meant to be a comparison of that issue with this one. As I've also said, I hardly even know what happened in either case (which is why I've stayed out of the particulars), so it's irrelevant.

Looks like I was wrong about assuming the topic was winding down, though. You know, kinda funny to juxtapose this incident against 2020's claims—those concerning honesty, "honour," and self-organization. Just another example from reality to keep in mind when he comes back with his deluded pie-in-the-sky proposals.

Anyhoo, I'll step out now. Exit, stage left!

A) I could have if I'd paid any attention to the paging. I was just too excited by the pretty colors. That's what led to...
B) The pretty colors! They led me to creating that magical mix! Sources: http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 90#p263767
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/114777-n ... p-tart-cat Software used: Gimp Gnome 2 Gentoo Hardware used: HP dv7-6163us AOC e2795vh Logitech MX 518 Thermaltake Challenger. Alas, I do not know who made my USB hub, the wires, the table, chair, or house I was in. That should attribute pretty much everyone invovled though!

Gosh, I hope you're playing along, heh. (Quote spaghetti on that one, just deleted the preceding ones.)

Most people know who I am, it's but a simple translation of my original name :p

Doesn't help me. "Venijn" seems to be Dutch, yeah?, but babelfish is just returning the same word.


Gah! Is the forum always so dang slow to load this time of night?

EDIT: Crap, I just got a

Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@forums3.armagetronad.net and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

...and almost double-posted. Only the fact that sinewav and ins posted in the meantime, resulting in one of those "new posts were made before you submitted" messages, prevented it. Crisis avoided!

[sinewav]

We all thought it would be fun to play in an "all star team" and made it to try 1 ladle... well we shouldnt have lied or use aliases, that was kind of stupid i guess but we didnt break any rules and didnt cheat ingame so what is involving our clans is kind of "personnal" i think...Anyways what is done is done lets go ahead and stop all the useless drama/argument on this...

I don't think you realize this is a big deal. I don't think you realize this isn't just personal between members and their clans. It affected everyone. While no two names appeared on the Challenge Board simultaneously, players did sign up for more than two teams. A player isn't a name. A player is a person. This should be self-evident, and shouldn't have to be written out, but I guess if you don't understand that simple fact, maybe I'll make a point to add that definition later when I have a chance. So yes, rules were broken, but not explicitly stated rules. They were the rules of good sportsmanship and good intentions. Your team chose to be dishonest and now you are trying to say "it's no big deal." It's a huge deal. You've offended the entire community. People look up to you as players because of your skill and as people because of your manner -- you set one terrible example of how to be a "pro."

I'd like to point out there was no apology in your post and only the slightest hint of remorse. This is a sign of disconnect. It needs to be addressed, and that is why this thread persists.

If you don't understand why this was such a terrible thing to do, then let's look at a possible future Ladle if everyone followed Baylife's example by "not breaking the rules." Every month anywhere from one to a dozen new forum accounts are created with the sole purpose of creating aliased teams which might or might not be filled with players depending on how the brackets are randomized. Players get used to having two or more teams to play with depending on which path through the brackets look easier. Later, teams don't really exist as teams anymore because players can't be relied upon to show up if they get a bad draw before Ladle. People just form loose associations in the month previous. Eventually, no one really knows who they are playing, and all the teams might as well remain "Team Blue, Team Gold" and all players could simply be "Player 1, Player 2, ..."

Is this a wild fantasy? Well, if the "All-Stars" can do it, why shouldn't every team do it? You think this won't happen again next month if we don't address it now? Don't kid yourself. There is enough hostility in these circuits to almost ensure we have 2-3 aliased teams on the next bracket. I'm glad you liked playing under alias because that's probably how you'll always play in the future. And so will everyone else.

I can understand my clan being upset with me. But really no one else has any ground to stand on here.

More disconnect from reality.

[-*inS*-]

ooh missed this post

We all thought it would be fun to play in an "all star team" and made it to try 1 ladle... well we shouldnt have lied or use aliases, that was kind of stupid i guess but we didnt break any rules and didnt cheat ingame so what is involving our clans is kind of "personnal" i think...Anyways what is done is done lets go ahead and stop all the useless drama/argument on this...

I don't think you realize this is a big deal. I don't think you realize this isn't just personal between members and their clans. It affected everyone. While no two names appeared on the Challenge Board simultaneously, players did sign up for more than two teams. A player isn't a name. A player is a person. This should be self-evident, and shouldn't have to be written out, but I guess if you don't understand that simple fact, maybe I'll make a point to add that definition later when I have a chance. So yes, rules were broken, but not explicitly stated rules. They were the rules of good sportsmanship and good intentions. Your team chose to be dishonest and now you are trying to say "it's no big deal." It's a huge deal. You've offended the entire community. People look up to you as players because of your skill and as people because of your manner -- you set one terrible example of how to be a "pro."

So people are mad because other people signed them up on wiki. Take a look at the prediction thread everyone knew who wasn't showing up for ladle. Hell people figured out who we were during our first match, as you said this is a small community and nothing will stay a secret. Sure I would have removed a few players from their teams on the wiki had I the jurisdiction, but I didn't so I didn't.

I'd like to point out there was no apology in your post and only the slightest hint of remorse. This is a sign of disconnect. It needs to be addressed, and why this thread persists.

Reading this isn't convincing me of anything.

If you don't understand why this was such a terrible thing to do, then let's look at a possible future Ladle if everyone followed Baylife's example by "not breaking the rules." Every month anywhere from one to a dozen new forum accounts are created with the sole purpose of creating aliased teams which might or might not be filled with players depending on how the brackets are randomized. Players get used to having two or more teams to play with depending on which path through the brackets look easier. Later, teams don't really exist as teams anymore because players can't be relied upon to show up if they get a bad draw before Ladle. People just form loose associations in the month previous. Eventually, no one really knows who they are playing, and all the teams might as well remain "Team Blue, Team Gold" and all players could simply be "Player 1, Player 2, ..."

Is this a wild fantasy? Well, if the "All-Stars" can do it, why shouldn't every team do it? You think this won't happen again next month if we don't address it now? Don't kid yourself. There is enough hostility in these circuits to almost ensure we have 2-3 aliased teams on the next bracket. I'm glad you liked playing under alias because that's probably how you'll always play in the future. And so will everyone else.

To be honest that's how the sumo tournaments work and it's always fun to guess who's who. Also I'd like to point out the contradiction in your logic, if "[I've] offended the entire community." Then why would others play under aliases next ladle? They would be offended at the thought! I doubt SP will use aliases next ladle, sure there might be a team that tries to mimic us, but I wouldn't expect it to be an every ladle trend.

I thought the pseudo-apocalyptic outlook of the future of the ladle was a pretty funny hyperbole though.

Side-note: i'm getting the same errors as well, Phyto.

[Word]

did we somehow ruin your enjoyment of the ladle?

Just to clarify this once more, we all know how many ladles SP won (and how many PRU has lost for that matter). Nobody here tries to blacken SPs name, but it's absurd to put something under taboo everyone knows was done and can't be changed. To be blunt: Yes, you ruined that specific ladle for IB (and possibly for PRU, if the other team had been stronger than the one we were originally supposed to play - but that's irrelevant for my point), noob saibot doesn't take part in ladles anymore (see links), and if every team would behave as selfish as you did then (again, note past tense), the ladle wouldn't exist much longer (yes, I realize this is a typical slippery-slope-argument). If I had been one of the people who make the brackets/record the matches I had begun to ask myself why I still do that when everyone does whatever pleases him the most. And this:
Why make new rules/respect them when there's always at least one prick who doesn't care about them or thinks he can trick them out without causing trouble (even more shamefully if he actually wouldn't need to in order to have a fun ladle)? Why even have a competition when you already know that the team that has no scruples to change the brackets/players/names/servers/opponents in its own favor will win? Why keep telling teams who think the ladle is rigged that it (usually) isn't?

I can't think of anything better than keeping the rules as they are (I think subs should be kept...) and just hope that the responsible players don't do it again. Making more and more rules only wastes the time of the people who make them and doesn't really prevent someone with bad intentions from finding a way around them. People just need to be aware that they are slowly destroying the tournament they like to win (and thanks to which their team exists in its current form - I don't expect these "teamhoppers" to realize that because they aren't emotionally bound to a team, but maybe team captains do and don't let them play).

edit: noticed that sine had the nearly same argumentation

[dreadlord]

To us this was just a 1 ladle vacation, what does 1 ladle mean? Really nothing tbh, ...

The fact that it is so important for SP to keep the Ladle triple in their rows shows that this is a lie, actually Ladles mean a lot to you although you always state the opposite.

[Tank Program]

Gosh, I hope you're playing along, heh. (Quote spaghetti on that one, just deleted the preceding ones.)

Yes, just playing along. As I said, I simply could not resist the pretty colors.

Re: the almost double posting - I have no idea. Maybe the host rebooted the server there causing some sort of session related snafu needing a cookie reinitialization, or something. No idea if it's regular because I'm typically not up at 5 AM. If people do notice it persisting, let me know. Could be generally increased evening traffic and server load as all of the US hits after dinner time.


About the current discussion, I don't like commenting because I don't fully understand the situation. No one elaborate because that's not going to help - I'm not a ladle player and I've never really been too deeply involved in fortress. I'd just like to point out that I'm somewhat pleased that discussion has remained more or less on the level and hasn't turned too dramatic. Good points have been raised and explained, but over the last day or so it doesn't seem like any sort of consensus has been reached and that the same ground is being rehashed (e.g. spinning wheels). As your friendly moderator, I suggest everyone take a day or so and think about their positions before they get too frustrated. Note that I do mean think and not stew.

[Kijutsu]

insa cares so little about winning that he lied to his clan and stole some good players from other clans (minus a few) to ensure SP is the only clan with a 3 win streak

forever the kings of bad sportsmanship

[þsy]

Don't you dare...

How has this happened.. Do you really think SP had any involvement in this? Sure, maybe insa and fofo wanted to retain that stupid title (I don't know if they did?), but SP had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT

In fact, that dumb three-in-a-row thing doesn't matter at all to us. I didn't even realise that it would have been Revolver's third ladle victory had they won (I hadn't played in the last two ladles), and I wouldn't have cared if I had realised. It wasn't mentioned once in the build up to the ladle on SP's public or private section, and we had NO IDEA that insa and fofo weren't doing their finals, or working that night, and were actually planning to play for another team

Now, I can understand why maybe insa and fofo would want to keep that 3 ladle wins title, but as pointed out earlier, they do not represent SP in this thread. They were also only two players out of six, so perhaps it was to stop Revolver, but perhaps there were other incentives? I can't really see the other 4 players committing to a team to stop Revolver win three in a row because they're desperate to have SP have it... !

The consequences if insa and fofo's actions have been dealt with in SP, and we see the need to forgive them in order to move on as a clan. However, if any further consequences are to be taken, as decided by the forums, then we will oblige with the community's wishes

But PLEASE, stop alluding to this being some SP conspiracy. 3 ladles in a row, 4, 5 - whatever, we don't give a monkeys

[Titanoboa]

Oooo ok so I have a suggestion. Well actually I can't say I came up with it because it's been suggested many times before. But I've added to the idea, too (I think). Maybe I've even changed it completely. Anyway here goes.

@ladle authority

• Hosted on an external website (obviously).
• One and only one account per player.
• However, users can freely change their @ladle name on the website. Once every 30 days.
• Captains and players are listed with their @ladle name on the wiki, and using that @ladle login is required to play in the ladle. (The grid name doesn't have to match the signed up @ladle name?)
• Using a secondary login during ladle leads to a suspension (The auth mod(s) can simply demote/ban the player's accounts from the website for a month)

Admittedly, I haven't spent more than a few minutes thinking about all this but since the idea has been brought up from different people in various situations, some open discussion couldn't hurt, I reckon.

Also, if you feel inclined, help me list pros and cons? 100% sure I'm missing a lot of cons.... and pros.

• Pros
• A ladle auth would be cool!!! and you know it
• Easier to make player stats? (Everyone loves stats)
• Ooo, every account could have their own statistics page on that external website, with all stats on it (not sure how possible it'd be to automate that, though). Also, the user could manually attach older stats to his account
• Harder to get away from breaking rules (I think?)
• Easier for the community to follow through with penalizing rule-breaking (I think?)
• A ladle auth would be really cool. And stats.
• I had much more better pros (with substance) in mind when I thought of making this list. Seem to have forgotten them. (Everyone loves stats tho)

• Cons
• Slightly harder for ladle beginners to join in. (Shouldn't be harder than registering for @forums though, so I'm not sure if this is a valid con)
• Requires some more volonteer work. But if it turns out it helps the ladle it should be fine?

[Venijn]

Oooo ok so I have a suggestion. Well actually I can't say I came up with it because it's been suggested many times before. But I've added to the idea, too (I think). Maybe I've even changed it completely. Anyway here goes.

@ladle authority

• Hosted on an external website (obviously).
• One and only one account per player.
• However, users can freely change their @ladle name on the website. Once every 30 days.
• Captains and players are listed with their @ladle name on the wiki, and using that @ladle login is required to play in the ladle. (The grid name doesn't have to match the signed up @ladle name?)
• Using a secondary login during ladle leads to a suspension (The auth mod(s) can simply demote/ban the player's accounts from the website for a month)

Admittedly, I haven't spent more than a few minutes thinking about all this but since the idea has been brought up from different people in various situations, some open discussion couldn't hurt, I reckon.

Also, if you feel inclined, help me list pros and cons? 100% sure I'm missing a lot of cons.... and pros.

• Pros
• A ladle auth would be cool!!! and you know it
• Easier to make player stats? (Everyone loves stats)
• Ooo, every account could have their own statistics page on that external website, with all stats on it (not sure how possible it'd be to automate that, though). Also, the user could manually attach older stats to his account
• Harder to get away from breaking rules (I think?)
• Easier for the community to follow through with penalizing rule-breaking (I think?)
• A ladle auth would be really cool. And stats.
• I had much more better pros (with substance) in mind when I thought of making this list. Seem to have forgotten them. (Everyone loves stats tho)

• Cons
• Slightly harder for ladle beginners to join in. (Shouldn't be harder than registering for @forums though, so I'm not sure if this is a valid con)
• Requires some more volonteer work. But if it turns out it helps the ladle it should be fine?

That... is a fantastic idea, and I would enthusiastically support it.

[Kijutsu]

Don't you dare...

How has this happened.. Do you really think SP had any involvement in this? Sure, maybe insa and fofo wanted to retain that stupid title (I don't know if they did?), but SP had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT

In fact, that dumb three-in-a-row thing doesn't matter at all to us. I didn't even realise that it would have been Revolver's third ladle victory had they won (I hadn't played in the last two ladles), and I wouldn't have cared if I had realised. It wasn't mentioned once in the build up to the ladle on SP's public or private section, and we had NO IDEA that insa and fofo weren't doing their finals, or working that night, and were actually planning to play for another team

Now, I can understand why maybe insa and fofo would want to keep that 3 ladle wins title, but as pointed out earlier, they do not represent SP in this thread. They were also only two players out of six, so perhaps it was to stop Revolver, but perhaps there were other incentives? I can't really see the other 4 players committing to a team to stop Revolver win three in a row because they're desperate to have SP have it... !

The consequences if insa and fofo's actions have been dealt with in SP, and we see the need to forgive them in order to move on as a clan. However, if any further consequences are to be taken, as decided by the forums, then we will oblige with the community's wishes

But PLEASE, stop alluding to this being some SP conspiracy. 3 ladles in a row, 4, 5 - whatever, we don't give a monkeys

Your avatar isn't ugly.

[dreadlord]

..., but SP had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT

I hope you didn't understand me wrong, that's not my opinion at all. My post was directed at insa (and fofo).

@ Titan's idea: I really like it, especially that there's only one account for each player.

[þsy]

Dread: It was more liz and word's posts that I was referring to. Even if they were a bit tongue-in-cheek, I would like to state - for the record - that this has nothing to do with us. If anyone has a right to be angry, it is in fact SP. Team Baylife knocked both our teams out of this ladle... Perhaps suggesting Speedhax would have beaten Revolver is a bit too much, but I honestly believe Speeders would have won against Revolver in the finals (with or without insa/fofo). So I consider this a ladle victory lost for us

Titan: I like the idea, but it's just the setting up. I don't really have my own suggestion, but there may be an easier solution that doesn't involve so much work. You're right though, starts are fun!

Liz: I'm speechless