Moderator Abuse...again

[Amaso.]

@Word: Cry more

[Z-Man]

I already expressed my displeasure about the edit comment to Tank and Lucifer privately well before Durf posted here. The edit itself was quite obviously legitimate (no, we mods also don't have access to the original text). That settles it as far as I am concerned. If Tank wants to take further action, I won't try to stop him.
Durf has, of course, completely failed to get that and assumed the worst. And he is acting as if he had some sort of moral high ground, and as if it has not been him tying us all up for the past almost three, THREE months now.

[Light]

for the past almost three, THREE months now.

Yeah, it feels longer. At what point can it just be forced to end?

[/dev/null]

Lucifer is a tyrant

Well played Luci.

As for the rest of you fluffy bitches, when you make me side with the devs, you are ******* in the finest possible way. Keep that in mind while you complain.

The mods dont have or need to explain themselves, this is thier site, dont like it, ******* leave. This has never been a democracy, its unlikely to start just because you feel oppressed.

[Lucifer]

I already expressed my displeasure about the edit comment to Tank and Lucifer privately well before Durf posted here. The edit itself was quite obviously legitimate (no, we mods also don't have access to the original text). That settles it as far as I am concerned. If Tank wants to take further action, I won't try to stop him.

I blatantly trolled Durf. I have been asked to stop (by Z-man, in case anybody has room to save some face that doesn't need to be saved, I can offer some of Z-Man's face, but none of my own).
I have been blatantly trolling Durf for awhile now. Whoop-de-*******-doo.

I will attempt to restrain myself in the future. I don't anticipate that period lasting long, but regardless of how long it lasts, I will restrain myself.

Not that that's particularly relevant. I also don't intent to spend the rest of my life apologizing for my behavior, nor do I intend to spend it justifying Z-man's apologizing for my behavior. None of that is going to happen. I am who I am.

Now then, whoop-de-*******-doo, I edited a post that badly needed to be moderated, and I also trolled Durf in the process. I consider that a success, and I already have hate mail about it from my fellow moderators. I don't operate in a vacuum. I get feedback, many times from users (and there are many users who have been grateful they contacted me, just so you know), and also from other moderators.

I'm not blowing those people off, they're people that really matter to me. It is because of what they say to me, and how I hold them in my view, that I back off from trolling Durf, even though trolling Durf is really ******* fun.

Just so we know which way the PM winds blow.

It's not that I don't care what Durf says, really. I DO care. I care so much that I've read posts he's written and I've considered which knife I should use to open my veins (true story, but it's not as dramatic as I present it here).

At some level, Durf is the troll that write 1000 words that all say "kill yourself, you're not worth living".

True story.

In other news, my gender fluid kid who is also periodically suicidal has come to live with me. I apologize in advance for the time this will take me from this project.

Real life happens.

[Durf]

<post>
I will try to be as concise as possible:
- You've all misinterpreted the purpose of the thread and the main subject of the post "there is a recurring problem".
- The problem is Lucifer's pattern of behavior; seemingly overstepping boundaries constantly and/or the apparent lack of policy that defines a moderators actions are acceptable or not (there are rules to protect this website and users from other users, but where are the rules that protect us users from the moderators?).
- I never intended to imply that the actual edit in itself was the problem, only that there was a lack of genuine reason stated AND that the reason was just provocation from a moderator. (besides that, it also shows what he has allowed to stay - defining that as acceptable words to use; no complaints later on when I use them on you)

The recurring problem is real, and won't be dismissed because the edit in itself was called for.
Though, would you all like to see the entire list of instances where both Z-Man and Lucifer have been overstepping certain boundaries?
This isn't about the post, or the edit; this is about moderator ABUSE. We all know what abuse is, right? There's plenty more we can talk about in public if you want; as I said, 7 or 8 other instances just within the past week or so.
Quality assurance for all users.
</post>


. . . . .


The rest here is a response to specific things that were said:

@Overrated: I hope I clarified a few things and what I meant by this thread. Your note about "assuming that the post actually changed" is worthy of noting too - it shows exactly what Lucifer left behind even though he "moderated" it. You as the public decide if you enjoy being on a forums website with this kind of moderator. But yea, this thread is in reference to the reason given (and the lack of a true reason)


@kyle: <removed; for now? mb>


@asdasd: none of the reasons you listed. Refer to my answer @Monkey for an explanation (the bottom part that starts with "Now: Bonus content").


@Lucifer: (there's like 2 more for you)
Checklist:

Code: Select all

YES - So Lucifer, you want to explain your edit(s)? 
 _  - Are you, as moderator, permitted to edit a user's post without reason to edit them? 
 _  - Are you, as moderator, permitted to make an attempt to deliberately piss a user off?
 _  - What example are you setting for everyone? And how do you expect this example to improve the community as a whole?

^ you failed to answer 3/4 questions asked of you.
I appreciate you giving the true reason for the edit; would like it if that was on the actual edit from now on.
But regardless of the edit and reason, I'm still asking those question for clarification on the (non)existent policy. Please answer them (as that was the part I'd knew you'd avoid - c'mon, show everyone how you're not being a little bitch taking an action to piss a user off then running away without explaining).
As for the reason you put... why? I mean, specifically, why did you go out of your way to do that? Couldn't you just leave well enough alone?
Haven't you learned yet not to start what you can't finish?


@GonZap: Thank you. +1. He should be setting an example for everyone (and technically is) - makes you wonder the relation to this recurring problem, a trollish moderator and a "dying community" that we have to work to keep growing (how pitiful).


@Lucifer: the modification to do so is possible. I won't lie and say it's a simple phpBB mod, but at the same time it's not a monumental task.


@Amaso: I shouldn't have to concern myself with anyone else's problems to be able to enjoy these forums. If that is Lucifer's very nature, I should not have to appease him or permit him to abuse his status just because of his "condition". Even so, wouldn't that serve to show his inadequacy as moderator? I came here to this website with the assumption that it had real moderators that knew what they were doing and a real administrator that actually ran things. That was my fault for assuming (yet other open source project have perfectly fine run forums - perhaps it has something to do with how those games actually develop over time). Now that Lucifer and Z-Man have proven to me otherwise, the only person left that I can really talk to in an attempt to solve these problems the right way is Tank Program. I would still like to give Tank the benefit of the doubt - I still have faith in this website.
As for trolling - I am not. You would know if I'm trolling when I say something that cannot be supported by evidence or reasoning.
Though, I'm beginning to come to the realization...what if they are trolls? What if this entire website is just an unfair game to them?
All the interactions begin to make sense if you interpret Lucifer and Z-Man as trolls. I guess I'm hoping for too much when I still have faith that Tank Program can do the job they failed to do.


@Word: You are incorrigible. I clarified my post - if you still have a problem then try posting what you said again after you've read the clarification. No misinterpretations, and Lucifer admitted to the reason. You've made an assumption, however I don't blame you this time - but I will if you continue without knowing what you're talking about.
"Is it a far stretch if I say that most of us wouldn't mind if Durf/Amaso and the likes just get banned permanently?" - this is probably one of the worst things you could have said yet. You clearly have a problem with me, I've asked you countless times, tried to settle our differences, and each time you refuse to actually get along. So how am I the problem? How are you not being a bigot that just wants to get rid of those who are too different for your intolerance? This is the kind of intolerant behavior I was referring to when I post about how "Armagetron is dying and how to keep growing". Besides your constant misinterpretations, harassing and pompous behavior, you literally also implied that large sections of the community aren't worth a damn to you (basically any game type you don't play). If you don't see how this kind of discrimination is a problem in this community, then I will begin to urge everyone to takes steps to reform users like you - because I'm actually going to do something to solve the problems around here. The moderators? Avoid, avoid avoid - seems they do that with their problems, disputes, and even development. If they aren't going to make this project and website into something worthwhile, then I will. Permanently banning users you don't like is FAR from the solution. You are just one of a few problem users that need reforming.
As for expecting the moderators to deal with disputes, clearly they are selective with their time (the little free time they DO have, they decide to do something petty and overall worse for these forums than if they had not - instead of actually settling a dispute; instead of being reasonable people...y'know...human?). BTW, you're the only one to have ever mentioned a conspiracy in the first place - keep on going with it and you might convince people that I thought of it myself (<-- sarcasm). I asked you to stop your aspersions, and if the moderators think it's okay, then I will begin playing this game by your rules...are you sure you want that? Learn to be an adult.
It is not asking for a ban to dispute a case of moderator abuse - the moderators have told me they aren't abusive, they claim to be reasonable, and they claim that their actions are just. So when presented with a contradiction, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for clarification and reasoning, let alone asking to be banned. But like I said, I'm aware that this is their website (Tank's) and that they can do what they want with it, but how do they expect a gullible Durf to comply without instruction? If there are no restrictions for moderators, I would like to know if I should expect them to be unreasonable people, who will ban anyone for making a strong and valid argument against their opinion; I would like to know exactly what kind of website I'm using here. If they are just trolls / abusive by nature / without limitations (free to abuse as much as they want), then I am inevitably going to be abused without warning. All I'm asking is for the expectations; clarification. So they are trying to set the expectations that they are no abusive, unreasonable, or tyrannical...shouldn't be too hard to prove it then.
Saying I don't really lose anything shows just how much of an asshat you are - I would never disallow a user to use these forums simply because I don't like them or they didn't matter to me.
And about "Durf is actually Code Hunter/Rajinn"; I only ever use one account for these forums. Don't believe me? I don't care if you do. Your disbelief is a sign that you exist with the expectation that people do that sort of thing (obviously due to the previous exposure you have to it; whether you do it yourself or know of others that have multiple accounts). Try reading what I've said in the "why we use fake names" thread. You're the ones hiding from truth, not me.


@Monkey: Please look at this post as an example as to why my posts contain a lot of words. There is a concise post at the top (it is concise is it not?). Yet underneath are responses that I wouldn't have been able to post had they been included within that concise post... not according to your expectations anyway.
It's not that I'm using far more words than is required to get my points across (though relatively yes that is the case, to be explained), it is that I'm addressing many points in a single post (example: I'm responding to 8 different users, each user bringing up multiple points, some of which are irrelevant; now either you specifically want me to ignore people [disrespect] or you want me to settle an issue as soon as possible [quickly]). I don't believe the number of words relates to emotional context...and you shouldn't either. I feel like asking you why the length would make me seem the way you described, and yet, should I bother? Are you just going to think I'm being emotional for asking you? I'm not an emotional creature (like you are used to), besides you being entirely wrong about that assumption (that post length is directly proportional to emotional context), you are also mistaken that I would even react in such a way. Put simply, I'm just too different for you to have any real (dependable) expectations (and/or predictions); you'd need to understand yourself a whole lot more before you can begin to understand others properly.
"Secondly": You didn't even realize that "the only issue with it was the reason he stated for the edit". I tried to clarify this within my "concise" post. My problem is not with the action of the editing, it is with the action of NOT putting the real reason and INSTEAD making a deliberate troll attempt. THAT is what is abusive - THAT is what is (rather should be) wrong for a moderator (of all people on these forums) to do. You mention it was sarcasm...it doesn't excuse the fact that he didn't do his job properly. Like I said to others in this post: He takes a questionable action (tests his limits with you, the community), and you define it as acceptable or unacceptable. When you see Lucifer take actions against a user (even someone you don't like), and you approve of it, you open the playing field for him to do that to you the very second you disagree with him. The recurring problem is real, and I would appreciate it if you guys would at least try to take it seriously if you're going to be posting in threads like these.

Now: Bonus content for Monkey (and anyone else wondering about my word choice).
First of all, I would like to say that it's common for people with Asperger's Syndrome to use (what is labelled as) "unusual" or "alternate" language and wording.
That shouldn't be a problem, and it says a lot about you a person if you are too intolerant towards the way another person speaks (do you hate foreigners too?).
Second, there is also a disposition that is unique to certain groups of people. As I mentioned, I'm just far too different to meet your expectations - part of the reason why I say that we should all be more tolerant when communicating with each other.
Theory:
Imagine that each thought, rather, an idea in its purest form, is a dartboard (with the very centre being the most pure). "Throwing a dart", and the subsequent hit, is an attempt to portray that idea to another person (be it in words or something else). Assume that it is impossible to hit the bullseye - impossible to portray the exact and pure thought you have in your head. The reasons why are due to things like LANGUAGE, LOCATION, UPBRINGING, CULTURE, etc... Each person will have a specific disposition when throwing their darts. Which is why a dart thrown by someone who speaks English, will be "far away" from the dart thrown by someone who speaks Japanese. Even if both people had the SAME bullseye (the same thought / idea), their darts land someone else from each other and have a distance apart. This distance is like a miscommunication - something to overcome before you understand WHY the other dart landed where it did. That means, if the English person also understood Japanese, they understand and can see why the dart throw played out the way it did, and even mimic it (putting them in another's shoes so to speak). <edited grammar, no change to meaning>
Now, not everyone will throw their darts in the same place, but people of a like mind will throw their darts closer to each other (example: everyone living within a 100 km radius of each other most likely uses the same idioms and speech patterns; same upbringing [or close to], location, language, culture, etc..). Say for example, this community (or the section of the community that seemingly has a problem with my posts) all throws their darts with a slight bend to the top right (due to them sharing a like mind - they can easily be friends).
The distance between darts is any and all reasons for miscommunication. The shorter the distance, the easier it is for people to understand each other.
Still with me?
The longer the distance, the harder it is for people to understand each other.
So, my darts throws have a bend in a direction that is unknown to (seemingly) EVERYONE in this community (or that section, at least); Asperger's Syndrome (like a bend towards the bottom-left). Besides that, there are plenty of other personal details that I'm not about to share that add to the difference in our "dispositions", which inevitably increases the distance between where our darts land. This would mean that the RELATIVE perception of effort required to understand me is greater than it is for those who are more like you.

This explains why some people (good friends) don't even have to say anything and merely look at each other to know what the other is thinking. You call that efficient (being concise), but that is intuitive - besides me being a logical creature that lacks a certain intuition (the cause of my unusual speech) that opportunity to be that "efficient" is only there because of a similar disposition.
What you and many other have gotten mad at me for is something that is VERY hard to control (at least by yourself - how can you throw like a Japanese person without knowing their culture and language? Without actually BEING Japanese?), and I'm the only one expected to do something about it (when it is, and should be, everyone's responsibility). There are reasons why I promote messages of tolerance and understanding and that may be due to my exposure to these types of problems more so than you are. I could be arguing with you saying that you are the ones that should adapt, not me; I shouldn't have to change who I am just to be able to post like a "normal" person and to be accepted by this community (do you know how ridiculous that sounds?). On the contrary, instead I've been making attempts to change things for you guys (like this post, the bbcode, etc..). I've been putting in effort to appease, and the only responses I get are continuous intolerance - even rejection of my attempts (like the bbcode). So either users like you will realize how ridiculously you are treating other TRONNERS (do you forget that we share the same hobby?), or you yourself are being far too unreasonable to be taken seriously (you want to be against me simply for the sake of being against me - addressing my post length is but one of the many attempts used to devalue my words, and you seem to have bought into it).

Either you will put effort into understanding one another, or you will choose to be intolerant. Give it a rest with my post length because you don't understand what is even happening (though hopefully now you have a better idea). Even if you choose to be intolerant, it won't change anything...you'll just be that person who is too intolerant to have a discussion with. However, there is a greater chance of me being able to learn and match your dart throws if you also make an attempt at understanding and show tolerance towards the distances between our dart throws.
Sometimes I may present an idea in more than one way too - this is like throwing more darts to the same bullseye, and from all those positions, you can get an average disposition that will (hopefully) be closer to the bullseye than any of the throws themselves. This is an example of what someone can do to ease the difficulty in overcoming that distance.
Like I say; patience; tolerance. We're all tronners here, and we're not trolls (at least I'm not trolling you), so we should be able to work out our differences without going to war (or wanting people to be banned like some of the a-holes in this thread).


@Z-Man: Maybe if you finished what you started instead of trying to start more bullshit, you wouldn't have so much to deal with (heck you might have nothing to deal with at this point had you did your job in the first place - ever think of that?). You say "That settles it as far as I am concerned." but that is misguided - please refer to my "concise" post at the top for clarification. The problem was not the edit (action), it was the reason given (as an action made by a moderator deliberately to piss a user off) and the lack of a real reason. You could also do this thread some good by answering the questions that Lucifer failed to answer. You did it last time, won't you cover his ass again this time? You want to talk about moral high ground, then we can talk about all the times YOU have abused, and I will start with you pathetic attempts in the PM history thread. If you didn't fear being proven to be unreasonable and an incompetent moderator, you would unlock the thread. If you felt so confident in what you say, you would unlock that thread. If you actually wanted to settle one of the many problems you started, you would unlock the thread. You want to finish things? Pick one. Let's finish it. Pick any of them, I don't care if we start with the one that you want so long as you will actually commit until the very end.

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them. - Galileo
There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth: not going all the way, and not starting. - Buddha
The truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. - Winston Churchill
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
Truth is by nature self-evident. As soon as you remove the cobwebs of ignorance that surround it, it shines clear. - Gandhi
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. - JFK
People can't change the truth, but the truth can change people. - Unknown

^ the main reason why you seem unreasonable is because of your petty nature to start shit you can't finish. Even if you can't finish it, it will be; might as well suck up that pride and get on with it. What are you afraid of exactly? That I'll be right? OMG The end of the world! (<-- sarcasm).


@Light: Light, your comment is unappreciated. I am not trolling this website. I never have been and I never will. Suggesting one can simply "force" it to end is the very abuse that caused all this in the first place. Did you forget that Lucifer banned me (basically out of rage for actually making a valid case against Vogue's ban appeal). That being said, I expect (rather hope) each and every one of you has the same persistence in determining the truth regarding the dealings between the moderators and myself.
To give you perspective: WHAT IF I am just an innocent user who has only ever contributed how they could, helped many users, created tools and servers, given scripts to admins, help develop clans behind the scenes, etc.. etc..?...what if, now, even users like you are going against me because of a false perception portrayed by abusive moderators (because of a disagreement, they are lashing out and manipulating the public)? And even if I committed some horrible crime (either being a sexist ass or being harassive - that wasn't made clear what I was doing wrong), can't a user with GENUINE intent to help get any leeway around here? Is that so ridiculous to ask? More ridiculous than asking for clarification for the apparent contradictions and abuse by the moderators???
Your post was kind of upsetting to read... I thought I could have expected more from you. Frankly, you have seen the UNCALLED FOR intolerance (such as the bbcode thread), and the constant aspersions, unfounded claims, and general insults that were made to me ever since Vogue's ban appeal (as Z-Man says, for 3 months)... And you think the way to solve that is to just get rid of the user everyone illogically hates? Wtf man...


@/dev/null: I'm just asking for them to either admit to being abusive, or to define what the rules are exactly. If you're suggesting that since it is their website so they can make up any rules as they go along (contradicting past rules to serve their needs), then THAT'S FINE, and that is understandable. But would it be so hard to just admit to it? How can a brand new user (an increase in the community's population) be prepared for this unusual behavior? Is that unpreparedness part of the experience? Is this what "Armagetron Advanced" (the project) is all about? If so, then I will (very quickly) fork the project, and start doing things the right way. The website wouldn't be out of date and the game would actually get developed; not to mention that the website would run smoothly regardless of trolls. And get this, I've offered my help to them - do you know what? They don't want it. The latest PM in the PM History thread is there because of the very first PM from that particular chain, where I ask Z-Man how I would go about contributing to the code. I was met with more intolerance; was told that (due to the ban dispute) I was difficult to work with - without them knowing my experience or capability, they proved this is a little club and they wish to only keep their friends and/or anyone willing to kiss their asses. Sorry but I won't kiss their ass to contribute to open source software. Frankly I was disgusted to learn how things are actually run around here and was not at all surprised to learn the actual reasons why no meaningful development is getting done.


@Lucifer: Refer to the clarification in my "concise" post, and refer to the other @Lucifer's in this post. The problem wasn't the edit, but your choice to blatantly troll. I'm questioning is this is acceptable for a moderator to do.
Nobody expects you to spend the rest of your life apologizing for your behavior, though the fact that you even suggest that apologizing for your actions would take the rest of your life would suggest that you perhaps need some self-improvement discipline. Don't you try to improve yourself? Ever? Do you try to be better than you were yesterday? Or does "I am who I am" refer to your acceptance as the pitiful creature you are (giving up on life essentially). But that's more personal and not really an issue - you are free to be as worthless (as you say I put it) as you want (so no more bitching about it...k? You're personally allowed to be who you are, no matter how grotesque I think it is).
The problem is you are not just a moderator. A moderator is a position on this website; like a uniform, and while you wear it, you represent the project of "Armagetron Advanced" or at least, this website. While you represent something more than yourself, you should (this is based on other things - which is why I ask for this website's policy regarding moderation) strive to be better than your personal self, rather, be everything the Administrator wants you to be...is this not Tank Program's open source project? Does he not get to decide what kind of moderator he wants on his own website? I get that you guys are friends, and/or that you supported him in the past, but you are taking blatant advantage of his kindness. Face it, you are part of the reason why this community is "dying", and if you acted less like yourself and more like a moderator who is actually working FOR the website and FOR the project, you might be able to make this forum worth more than it is now.
Regardless, your attempts to restrain yourself is appreciated - but also expected; you should know better (even without the moderator status, as an adult you should know better).
If other moderators have to keep you in check, what are you doing causing more work for them? An extra hand on deck is to alleviate the workload, not cause more. Have you ever considered that the freedom to troll and abuse that you grant yourself, in itself, is a problem to this website? I mean seriously, what do you expect from your behavior?
Lucifer, you mistake me creating this thread to deal with the moderator abuse issues (many, including that of Z-Man's too, but I was starting with you) for actually being trolled; you are far from invoking an emotional response from me - and to be honest, I don't think you're capable. I think the closest "emotion" you made me feel was...surprise? No, that's not an emotion I don't think...disgust? That's not right either...To be honest, I don't think you have ever induced an emotional response out of me. It's just not in my nature - call me untrollable, but your methods mean nothing to me. It is only ammo for me to use to prove your inadequacy as moderator. So why would I dislike it? But hey, at least you're having fun - that should mean you won't go all ban-happy at least.
LOL, you're kinda funny - but if you really did care, you would reach a resolution when we discuss things - not run away from your problems (did you forget how you got arrested? xD).
By all means, Lucifer, show everyone how I write 1000 words that amount up to "kill yourself, you're not worth living". Show everyone here how you're: a) not just full of shit, and b) not just an over sensitive mental case that reads imaginary meaning into words. Either your act of calling me a troll is a troll attempt in itself, or you are genuine and you genuinely misread what I type (even so, you are far too sensitive to interpret such a meaning - at worst I have shown disapproval "Whoop-de-*******-doo"). You said in the beginning of your post that you would refrain from trolling - so if you're not a mental case, then you failed within the post you initiated the attempt in...GG.

[Z-Man]

Best of luck with your kid.

[dinobro]

Isn't threatening to hack the forums and compromise our passwords a solid ground to permaban? Z-man plz

[Amaso]

bahahaha

[Word]

What dinobro said.

I'm not blowing those people off, they're people that really matter to me. It is because of what they say to me, and how I hold them in my view, that I back off from trolling Durf, even though trolling Durf is really ******* fun.

Yes, wanted to say this earlier but then forgot it over replying to him.

To me, it comes down to this:
The elephant in the room - he's an autist - so do we treat/troll/ban him just as if anyone else had done this (thereby treating him equally/respecting/but also punishing him like a normal guy)? That's what I'd been leaning towards the whole time (and probably only reason I still replied to him) and my opinion about your edit is not very ambiguous as I said. As some people said in the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attacks, you side with the terrorists if you blame the satirists for hurting religious feelings. You can choose not to hurt them because you're afraid of a "reaction", but reacting with violence is still insane. The only thing you can be held responsible for is that you already know that Durf might react in a dumb way, but the result (or the hacking stuff) is still Durf's responsibilty (insofar as he can even be considered accountable...).

Second option: Do we take his illness into account and treat him special by ignoring him altogether (like Z-Man did, which seems more successful/practical to me but goes a bit against the principle of taking everyone at face value - then again Durf, accountable or not, doesn't return that favor anyway and doesn't care about his dignity)? I'd guess Durf wouldn't like that himself because he thinks we are all morons/the ones with mental problems and he's the chosen one, but maybe we have an obligation to protect him from himself. It was difficult to qualify that, especially since he had a few followers, but now it seems evident that this is the way to go.

Either way, I don't think this way of handling it should have consequences for you until you moderators have agreed on a common approach, which you don't even need to IMO.

God, I should have posted this way earlier...

[Light]

@Light: Light, your comment is unappreciated. I am not trolling this website. I never have been and I never will. Suggesting one can simply "force" it to end is the very abuse that caused all this in the first place. Did you forget that Lucifer banned me (basically out of rage for actually making a valid case against Vogue's ban appeal). That being said, I expect (rather hope) each and every one of you has the same persistence in determining the truth regarding the dealings between the moderators and myself.
To give you perspective: WHAT IF I am just an innocent user who has only ever contributed how they could, helped many users, created tools and servers, given scripts to admins, help develop clans behind the scenes, etc.. etc..?...what if, now, even users like you are going against me because of a false perception portrayed by abusive moderators (because of a disagreement, they are lashing out and manipulating the public)? And even if I committed some horrible crime (either being a sexist ass or being harassive - that wasn't made clear what I was doing wrong), can't a user with GENUINE intent to help get any leeway around here? Is that so ridiculous to ask? More ridiculous than asking for clarification for the apparent contradictions and abuse by the moderators???
Your post was kind of upsetting to read... I thought I could have expected more from you. Frankly, you have seen the UNCALLED FOR intolerance (such as the bbcode thread), and the constant aspersions, unfounded claims, and general insults that were made to me ever since Vogue's ban appeal (as Z-Man says, for 3 months)... And you think the way to solve that is to just get rid of the user everyone illogically hates? Wtf man...

You seem to misunderstand my view. I would fall under the category of people that really have no interest in what you've done wrong or are standing up for at the moment. I am just a little sick of seeing the bitching going on every time I come here, and it's been going on forever now. I understand if you're having issues with a moderator, or a couple of them that you may want to argue your point, but even if that's the case, it can be done privately with the ones you're having the issues with. You don't have to bring the public into it or try to get them to rally with you against the mods. It seems like you argue in public because you like to argue and you know it'll get them to argue back with you. I would say you're trolling as much as Luci may be. You could maturely handle this in private, and if you can't, then there's nothing the public can do for you anyways. If you can't get to an agreement, try to get over it.

[/dev/null]

**** them. They ****** up, got thier post modded and are now bitching because they got laughed at for being ridiculous.

Lucifer did nothing wrong.

[Durf]

@dinobro + Word: First of all, idk where you get the idea that I've threatened to hack the forums because that (as a topic) is unrelated to this thread. But nonetheless I'd be happy to talk about it and share with you the entire conversation, but (I haven't checked) Z-Man seems to want to enforce his misinterpretations onto these forums by posting his say and locking the thread. Like I said, I'd be glad to talk about it, but it is off topic to post about it here. (This thread isn't just another place for you to toss your off topic nonsense so as to give a reason for the moderators to lock this thread and avoid yet another issue. Please stay on topic and/or create a new thread; I will gladly explain there.)
Second, jumping to the conclusion that I'm even a threat so as to permanently ban me would be abuse. I haven't done anything to deserve a ban and that's why I haven't been banned. Through the recent experiences, the "rules" have been made quite clear to me and are constantly set in example by the moderators. My threads like this one are only a pursuit of a better (in depth) definition on where "the line" (being a restriction on forum behavior one may violate) is drawn exactly. This is mostly for my own (but also others') understanding so that I may know exactly how to avoid breaking the rules.

@Word: While I can appreciate the attempt, you are still discriminating against me with:

He's an autist

^ the fact that your next word is "so" shows that your entire reasoning is based on that discrimination. Which means I can easily ignore the ignorant remarks you've made, however it is still a form of harassment; I've asked you to stop plenty of times and you still continue (you wanna talk about it?).

so do we treat/troll/ban him just like anyone else had done this (thereby treating him equally/respecting him like a normal guy)?

This is the part that gets me, and I've been asking for clarification but no one seems to give it to me. Explain it to me directly (like I'm 5 years old if you have to, so long as you're direct with your words): is it a normal occurrence to be abused by the moderators? And/or is it abuse at all? Meaning, is everyone here under the expectation that the moderators will exercise their abilities against any user that they happen to disagree with or want to troll at the time? All I want to know is if this place is mostly trolls or not; if this place is just a trolling playground then could a "autist" such as myself get a little heads up since I wouldn't naturally pick up on that (or any kind of) social queues? I mean, it's not that hard of a question to answer...is it supposed to be a secret?

The only thing you can be held responsible for is that you already know that Durf might react in a dumb way, but the result (or the hacking stuff) is still Durf's responsibilty (insofar as he can even be considered accountable...).

You don't know what you're talking about; I'd like to explain but it would be off topic and frankly make this post far longer than it needs to be for this thread. Sufficed to say that you DON'T already know anything. I'd appreciate it if you stopped spreading propaganda.

Or, do we take his illness into account and treat him special by ignoring him altogether (like Z-Man did, which seems more successful/practical to me but goes a bit against the principle of taking everyone at face value)?

This is your harassing discrimination; Z-Man's action as moderator to blatantly ignore me (if it's because I'm "ill", then that's far worse harassment than anything I've been accused of, let alone that even being true or not) is irresponsible for a moderator to do; one that is supposedly fair, just and reasonable as he claims to be. You can feel free to ignore me like you should have done in the PM History thread, because I was addressing other people and YOU chose to get yourself involved. But a moderator ignoring a dispute (or even clarification of rules) solely on the basis that I'm "ill" is discriminating against me; you're basically saying that every user who isn't "ill" is permitted to being treated fairly (assuming that is what usually happens around here) and/or are saying that all "autists" are ill. Are your feelings so hurt that you can only insult without reason? Your insult is based from your own ignorance to begin with, so the fact that you act so irrationally only shows you can't seem to control yourself when you post. Learn to curb your hate.

he thinks we are all morons and he's the chosen one

Again, I've asked you to stop making such aspersions. Why can't you appeal to a simple request? And why are the moderators continuously allowing this form of harassment? But by all means Word, show everyone exactly how I think that >_>

Either way, I don't think this should have consequences for you until you moderators have agreed on a common approach, which you don't even need to IMO.

Is it too much to ask them to finish what they start? Or to ask them to stop creating more and more issues? (forget about the old ones, there's constantly new material)




@Light:

You seem to misunderstand my view. I would fall under the category of people that really have no interest in what you've done wrong or are standing up for at the moment. I am just a little sick of seeing the bitching going on every time I come here, and it's been going on forever now.

I actually understand this perfectly well, but I'm afraid my hands are tied:

I understand if you're having issues with a moderator, or a couple of them that you may want to argue your point, but even if that's the case, it can be done privately with the ones you're having the issues with.

Actually, no...it can't. It has been specifically said to me that I'm not allowed to. Plus, let's not forget: "we don't hide behind PMs" - Lucifer. And on top of all that, even when I do try to talk things out with the ones I have a problem with, they simply refuse to actually discuss matters until a resolution can be reached. This was the reason why I've been saying Z-Man is unreasonable (obviously Lucifer too - he rage quit from his dispute a hilarious amount of times) and was incapable of being fair, so as to finish what Lucifer started as he claimed he would. This was all proven when Z-Man instigated the PM History thread as a means of disproving my "slanderous claims" that he was unreasonable. (notice now how Z-Man is abusing his moderator status to post something off topic - a petty attempt to start more drama as a means of avoiding the actual issue; regardless of that, I can easily explain his ridiculous accusations and rumors he's spreading, but he doesn't seem to want to allow me to have a voice [again] )

You don't have to bring the public into it or try to get them to rally with you against the mods. It seems like you argue in public because you like to argue and you know it'll get them to argue back with you. I would say you're trolling as much as Luci may be. You could maturely handle this in private, and if you can't, then there's nothing the public can do for you anyways. If you can't get to an agreement, try to get over it.

So I'll say this again...I've been trying to do everything you want me to do. They have called my dispute "harassing" them, and have refused to reach a resolution. I have never, at any point, expected the public to rally up against the mods. All I have ever been after is a clearer understanding of the rules around here - if I clearly deserved the ban(s) I would like to know why so I can have a fair chance at avoiding future bans...makes sense? I've always been here willing to discuss things until the very end; it is both Lucifer and Z-Man that constantly avoid issues (and start new ones so as to avoid the old ones). This is mostly the reason why your post was disappointing; though it was a simple misunderstanding of the situation. Believe me, I'd like to settle this privately if I could, but I'm not allowed.
"Getting over it" is not really something that would be hard to do if there wasn't a constant supply of moderator abuse. Additional cases are constantly being provided by the harassment from the moderators (such as Lucifer going out of his way to troll me as a moderator, not as a regular user). And it's like I said, we as the community define that behavior as acceptable; if everyone saw that blatant trolling as a bad example for a moderator to set, then they should let him know and work towards improving these forums (even little by little). But "letting it go" for a pattern of behavior (habitual) that is targeted against a single user is asking a bit much don't you think? I mean, if they could just leave well enough alone, don't you think I wouldn't have anything to talk about?





@/dev/null:

**** them. They ****** up, got thier post modded and are now bitching because they got laughed at for being ridiculous.

IDK who you're talking about but my concern is with Lucifer supplied "reason" for the edit; which is, basically, making a public statement as a moderator of these forums.

Lucifer did nothing wrong.

Am I to understand that his trolling (as a moderator and not as a user) is to be expected? Does this means that you also think unjustly banning someone is "nothing wrong" as well? Is that to be expected too? Just let me know...I'm asking directly...can I get a direct answer? What is this place?

[Word]

And/or is it abuse at all?

Whatever it is, it can't be compared to anything you have done and said afterwards. The moderators and forum regulars have been patient with you and tried to tell you in any way they can that you're wrong, and you're still thinking they're all trolls or sock puppet accounts, while you, in your posts, are the writing equivalent of a mamushka (and autism is an explanation for that behaviour). You like your dictionary links but don't see that your abuse far outweighs anything that was thrown back at you. Just compare how often you and we others use curse words/just accuse someone of harassment or hate/just insist that we are entitled to our opinion to make our point. It's certain that you're far lazier mentally than your long posts make it look on the first glance. The only question is whether you can be blamed for your debating style and threats being that irrational even if your intentions are pure. Human dignity is untouchable but one can easily lose it through undignified behaviour.

[dinobro]

Durf, since you accusse Word of being biased, let me clarify that I really doubt you are autistic. I think you made that up, like many other things, as attention and drama seems to be something that really keeps you going. Your threads/posts seem to be a self-sufficient evidence.
But see, sometimes you need to face consequences of your actions. You claim you did nothing wrong, but you don't have to actually DO something. You did send a threat to Z-man about hacking forums, probably compromising passwords and so on. I, for one, don't feel comfortable with you being allowed to log in here on daily basis, when you threaten to hack this site. That's why, I would like to see you banished. (Which means your useless, drama-seeking posts would be put to stop too - what a nice bonus!).
And before you ask me to "prove" anything, I really don't have to. I would take Z-man's word over yours anytime, since your motivation is really questionable (see attention seeking part).