Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

[Vogue]

hello, all of my friends
ladel dead
unban me and i make team
or kil
thank

You edited this post and it's still illegible crap? WTF? -- Lucifer

Well, since nobody seems to be saying much of anything, I have a few questions.
Are you saying here that the Ladle is dead and without you being unbanned, it will die, even if you have to be the one to kill it?
Why should we set a new precedent of an appeal for you ban?

yes

[Titanoboa]

For what it's worth, I'll post my reactions when I saw the topic and clicked on it....

So I saw the title and thought "Ah yeah, it's been a while, I suppose she's come to her senses.."
Then I clicked on it and read the post, and thought: "nah, guess not ".

You haven't taken the ban nor the rules, and thus in extension the ladle as a whole, seriously. (plus, your comments and attitude in general tend to support this claim.) So the logical, although primitive, question to ask might be: then why should we take your appeal seriously?

I personally like facing you on the grid, and you do provide competition (there's certainly stats to back that up), but if you don't have the figurative balls to say you're sorry and actually ask for an appeal in a serious manner, there's no way it should be given to you.

[S0lutai]

Damn Bros. Stop pretending this community is alright. Like nobody plays anymore. Yet you still try to pretend everyone does. Jesus. Stop being so proud of nothing (which I consider this game at the moment, plus not saying another disrespectful word to avoid a ban LOL) and ******* lift this ban. We don't entirely need Liz, but hey, we need players.

Everyone be like ". Let's be so f*cling ridiculous and still try to have this ban up even when tron is dying because the lack of players. Get your shit together and stop making me laugh with all your damn comments.

[Gonzap]

Yeah, there's the door son, you don't have to comeback (were you ever into the fortress community anyways?).

[Soul]

Damn Bros. Stop pretending this community is alright. Like nobody plays anymore. Yet you still try to pretend everyone does. Jesus. Stop being so proud of nothing (which I consider this game at the moment, plus not saying another disrespectful word to avoid a ban LOL) and ******* lift this ban. We don't entirely need Liz, but hey, we need players.

Everyone be like ". Let's be so f*cling ridiculous and still try to have this ban up even when tron is dying because the lack of players. Get your shit together and stop making me laugh with all your damn comments.

[Magi]

When Liz plays ladle, she puts together a team to play because she enjoys playing. Usually those players that she gets don't already have a team so that adds to the teams that play and the competition and amount of people playing. You're not going to get an apology from her, so if you're waiting for one, you're going to be waiting a long time. I personally think the community overreacted on the 12 month ban, but it was the consensus and it appears to be staying that way.

Personally I'd enjoy the competition that Liz brings to the ladle, and I don't really see why people are so persistent of keeping her banned. What is she going to do to hurt ladle that hasn't already been done to it. What's the saying, you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Well I think Liz has been around the league long enough that you're not going to change anything by keeping her banned. She'll find ways to bypass the ban if you keep her banned, which would just make more problems in future ladle topics. Wouldn't it cause less drama to unban her and let her play legitimately before she wins a ladle under alias and causes a 15 page ladle thread of why we have to replay the ladle at 8 pm est, even later for europeans, or why the winner got disqualified.

It's the communities call, this is just my opinion, but I wouldn't mind seeing Liz unbanned.

[Vogue]

but if you don't have the figurative balls to say you're sorry and actually ask for an appeal in a serious manner

1) it wouldn't make a difference 2) i'd be lying

i'm not sorry but once my ban is over i won't break any more rules for the simple fact that it's too much of a hassle to have everyone complain about it, assuming the game isn't completely dead by then

[Gazelle]

When Liz plays ladle, she puts together a team to play because she enjoys playing. Usually those players that she gets don't already have a team so that adds to the teams that play and the competition and amount of people playing. You're not going to get an apology from her, so if you're waiting for one, you're going to be waiting a long time. I personally think the community overreacted on the 12 month ban, but it was the consensus and it appears to be staying that way.

+1

[blondie]

couple things going on here

• judging by the original trial, to end the ban now would be to overturn 82% of the voters. Only 2/11 said 4 Ladles (Ladles 85, 86, 87, 88)
• had she not cheated a second time, her original, 3-ladle ban, would have ended before Ladle 87.
• judging her level of repentance is dumb. A ban isn't jail and she doesn't need to apologize.
• The case for repealing or altering the ban should be on the basis of whether the original punishment fit the original crime.
• It's been incorrect to ignore her subsequent violations. If people were interested in consistency and fairness, there should be additional PM trials for the other time(s) she has evaded the ban. The lack of those, somewhat perversely, is one argument that the original punishment was personal and based on Vogue's attitude rather than the violation itself.
• The message has been: "First violation: 3 months. Second violation: 12 months. Third violation: who cares, you're already gone year."
• nothing to prevent this type of violation has been implemented (again, whitelist). This is probably the strongest argument for a retrial; people were more interested in punishing Vogue for being a jerk than for cheating.
• Overall, the community hasn't consistently enforced either its own punishments or its own rules, which isn't surprising, but a complicated and much larger issue. It seems basically unfair for the teams of one Ladle to ban a player for a year's worth of Ladles. A better punishment system would be that a player must have a ban upheld each individual Ladle by the captains of that Ladle.

tl;dr plenty of "wrong" to go around. Another voting trial, with current captains, seems appropriate.

[Gonzap]

then make it possible to extend the ban for another 12 months, right? Either she gets unbanned, keeps the ban as it is, or the ban is extended. All or nothing baby.

But really why are you doing such a case out of nowhere, did she do ANYTHING to gain her appeal? Please, get real.

Just look at this crap:

hello, all of my friends
ladel dead
unban me and i make team
or kil
thank

[blondie]

not making any case for/against her. Just saying there's an argument for a retrial. Also believe she should be tried for her other violations this Fall, which have been ignored.

the question of retrial or not has nothing to do with what vogue "deserves" and everything to do with whether we think the original trial, in retrospect, produced a right and just punishment. All I'm saying is that regardless of how we feel about the 12 month ban, I believe that if there are viable arguments against it, a retrial (with options 0-8 months) makes sense.

and then probably she should be tried for the other times she claims to have cheated

[compguygene]

Before I say anything else, I would like to thank Blondie for a well presented post. Potentially valid points are raised.
I am going to put out my single biggest concern, and it's not that Liz apologize. Honestly, in regards to that, I can respect her not apologizing if it is not genuine.

hello, all of my friends
ladel dead
unban me and i make team
or kil
thank

You edited this post and it's still illegible crap? WTF? -- Lucifer

Well, since nobody seems to be saying much of anything, I have a few questions.
Are you saying here that the Ladle is dead and without you being unbanned, it will die, even if you have to be the one to kill it?
Why should we set a new precedent of an appeal for you ban?

yes

Part of my first question is if liz if not unbanned would actively do things to try to kill the Ladle. Her only answer is yes. I think that the idea of responding to what is some kind of a threat with "well because we need more teams/players, and we are afraid of what you might do to the ladle otherwise, we are just gonna end the ban" is just not the right choice. That in no way precludes the possibility of a pm trial for an appeal. Blondie has raised some questions that may need to be answered at this time with a pm trial.
More questions though.
Would it just be a PM trial to just appeal the ban?
Would it include the times that liz appears to have evaded the ban and possibly increase the punishment?
I think we need to sort out what a reasonable course of action should be here, and I don't mean by me just starting a pm trial. I mean by more reasonable discussion.
Also, if anybody does not want to post openly on this topic but would like to have their opinion expressed privately and anonymously, just pm me so your voice can still be heard.

[kyle]

So I saw the title and thought "Ah yeah, it's been a while, I suppose she's come to her senses.."
Then I clicked on it and read the post, and thought: "nah, guess not ".

And not that i thought you should have been banned this long, but they way you approached this "unbanning" was just like a half attempt to say hey it's not worth a shit that you banned me, just unban me now.

[F0RC3]

I call for an extension, the hate is real.

But seriously, at this point I don't care. I would just think it would be funny to extend it now since she asked for an appeal. She would probably bring in another team, which is a good thing, if she played. But I just think it would be funnier to extend the ban.

[Snxpflash]

Funny enough I have been thinking about this lately.. And I have come to the same conclusion as Vogue. As much as I and we all dislike(d) her lack of care for the rules... I care far more of her ability to make a team and generate interest to play in ladle. Like it or not, when all this bs started regarding her disciplinary repercussions and eventual ban.. is really (for me) when Ladle's downfall started to speed up. Like it or not people, allowing Vogue to play in Ladle again will have a positive affect on ladle, not a negative one. Maybe she isnt sorry for what she did but she obviously cares about ladle as much as we do.. she just has a really screwy way of showing it. January marks the new year, 2015.. Im not ready for ladle to die or the community.. lets start things off fresh and instill some vigor. As much as everyone hates to see rules broken.. we all love to play with and against Vogue in Ladle.. I say let her play.