How pickup kills tron

[Snxpflash]

I'm not gonna simply complain and not suggest an alternative, so why not PM these players and tell them they shouldn't leave early because it's against the rules, but as they haven't taken anyone else's spot, they won't be banned this time.

Or, As they have not !add'ed they also have caused no Foul.. My beef though is also with the fact that apparently this has all been stated for some time so.. why the heck is nothing being done about it? We can talk till we're blue in the face but we play pickups everyday. So will someone please make a verdict.

[Hoax]

A lot of individuals have been vocal about the banning as of recently, good to know they aren't part of the community and that you don't take it seriously.

Where did you get that from that's not what I said at all

Banning for people leaving early WAS situational and people WERE given warnings when they left early and it didn't cause any harm for the next game. However this ended up causing problems as like Monkey said, people who left before match winner caused others who planned to re-add to leave early as well, making it unfair for anyone that waited. So the decision was made that everyone had to wait until the same time before quitting regardless. Not hard to do & everyone was warned.
More detailed information should be available though explaining certain decisions and rules as clearly not everyone knows

[sinewav]

I'm going to suspend any opinions I have on pickup and ask that everyone try to provide solutions. I see a lot of complaining, but the problem isn't well defined. Is it because bans are happening inconsistently? Some people banned for 1 hour, some for 10 days? And these bans do not reflect the severity of the offense? Ok. Now we are getting somewhere.

First problem: some people don't care about bans. How does this weigh into a moderator's decision to ban or for how long? Is there a way to make bans incremental? Can a pickup bot keep track of a player and suggest a ban length based on previous infractions?

Second problem: Match Winner message. Yes, everyone knows the rules. Even so, I have accidentally left after seeing "Winner: Team Color" instead of "Match Winner." Is it appropriate to give the person the benefit of the doubt and issue a warning before a ban? Of course, some will take advantage of their "freebie" so I'm not sure how to deal with this.

Is there a way for pickup servers to send a message to the pickup bot with early exit info? Maybe the bot can read some sort of token from the server and prevent anyone from adding within a certain time frame near the end of a match? This way no one can add early so there is no need to leave early.

Third problem: Pick one! I have a few issues I can think of (re: subs, captains), but let's tackle one thing at a time.

[Concord]

I resent the implication throughout this thread that epsy, hoax and whoever else are pickup moderators are somehow important enough to kill tron

[epsy]

Some people banned for 1 hour, some for 10 days?

Keep in mind the 10-day ban issued on Vogue has nothing to do with the one hour bans that have been issued for early quits.

First problem: some people don't care about bans. How does this weigh into a moderator's decision to ban or for how long?

This isn't something we do yet, at least not for minor un-repeated offenses.

Is it appropriate to give the person the benefit of the doubt and issue a warning before a ban? Of course, some will take advantage of their "freebie" so I'm not sure how to deal with this.

The current policy is to apply the rule to the letter. The more lenient former approach lead to the reasoning that it was a rule that had to be broken commonplace. It also loosened the concept of a pickup game, where you are meant to attempt your A-game from start to end.

Maybe the bot can read some sort of token from the server and prevent anyone from adding within a certain time frame near the end of a match? This way no one can add early so there is no need to leave early.

This is indeed planned.

[Snxpflash]

The current policy is to apply the rule to the letter.

Welp, there's your problem right there. If that isn't irrational what is? I think, we need to determine what 'is' a problem for pickup and what 'is not'. Leaving between final score and Match_Winner and !add'ing 'is' a problem, as it's unfair to those who waited. However, leaving between final score and Match_Winner and NOT !add'ing, causing not 1 single problem for anyone and therefore 'is not' a problem. So, why should a player be banned? Dlh said to me "I wont take the time to track who !added and who didnt" But then he went on to spend 15min grabbing the log info from epsy to prove I did leave a second or two early. i have no problem with any of the moderators, <3 you all! But, i freaking love this game more and this unbalanced moderating and lack of specifics in the 'rules' is sucking that joy right out of me. There are players who either play no pickup or very little due to this topic.

My proposition:

A set of written rules agreed upon by at least the majority of the pickup-players and moderators. We're all friends here who want the same thing right? So, those who give a dam should come together and not have an argument or debate rather have an adult discussion as to the rules and how they should be. I am pretty sure whoever made the current "rule to the letter" did not involve the 'common players', hence everyone is upset.. except for the mods. lol

[kite]

Pickup isn't killing tron, the community is. I've witnessed countless first time users enter a public server and get harassed to the point of quitting the game. Not everyone is guilty of this, but the helpful to non-helpful player ratio is too skewed to have any considerable positive impact on increase of player population. As for taking away from other experienced players who don't want to play pickup, maybe it's time to play pickup.

...the concept of a pickup game, where you are meant to attempt your A-game from start to end.

Experienced players don't want to play megafort or public team sumo when the option for a serious, competitive game is available. I've spent too much time in public servers wishing people would actually play. I give up plenty of time in a day in public servers, and most of the time I try to be helpful to anyone I can, but there comes a point when I need to challenge myself by playing with experienced tronners. As for whatever complaints there are for pickup staff members, I've been banned a few times and I can't honestly say I didn't deserve each one. The rules aren't difficult to follow, so just be patient and don't be a prick and I don't think you'll have an issue.

Player population is indeed a serious concern, and anyone here who's been a member of a gaming community for an extended period of time can tell you that the population either grows or the game dies out. The number of active players on Armagetron is awful when you consider the amount of time this game has been available, and I think everyone here can agree that this game has something special that draws you into it (personally, I think it's the fact that the game is reliant on personal skill; not stats, items, power-ups, etc). There wouldn't be 10+ year veterans still fighting the good fight if there wasn't. I believe that Armagetron will become a far more active game in the near future, a few people are already working together to make this happen.

[sinewav]

A set of written rules agreed upon by at least the majority of the pickup-players and moderators. I am pretty sure whoever made the current "rule to the letter" did not involve the 'common players', hence everyone is upset.. except for the mods. lol

I am not convinced all the 'common players' are upset. I see a few players who feel mistreated. Rules don't necessarily need to be agreed upon by all. Server owners provide a service. They can make the rules. Your agreement is implied by playing in that server. Speaking of rules, I just refreshed my memory at hashpickup.net. These rules seem fair to me. Now about the bans...

From what I can tell, if you leave mid-game you are getting a one-day ban. Personally, I don't think this is long enough. It certainly wouldn't deter me (I don't play pickup that often!) But a one hour ban for leaving before the Match Winner message? That's barely a slap on the wrist. Even if you left by accident, this is hardly something to get upset about. Some players have been banned for a few or several days. Why? It doesn't matter. I can only trust the mods to use their best judgment, and from my experience, they do a good job. When they stop doing a good job, they lose their job.

Can the rules be amended to include new criteria for punishment? Yes, but more rules = less fun. The reason there are rules to begin with is because we are all a bunch of inconsiderate assholes (well, some of us are, myself included). If we have more patience and practice good sportsmanship there are would be less rule enforcement to get upset about. And much of this is no reason to get upset anyway. It's not like you can't just play in a different server.

Pickup is supposed to be a place where we show excellence. It is srs biz. Not following the rules is not excellent. To me, the bigger problem is people not taking pickup seriously. But this is really a topic for a different thread.

[Clutch]

Pickup is tron too, even though fort sucks

[Venijn]

the first time for an hour was for leaving early (after score limit was reached.) I left early so I could say good night to everyone and wish them well before everyone was added for the next, clearly didn't add, and then got banned anyway.

So you got banned for 1 hour but you was about to go to sleep, then had a full day of work before next pickup you would have wanted to play. Seems perfectly fine to get banned in that situation, no harm done.

Yes, let's ban people who are leaving anyway.

[Word]

To me, the bigger problem is people not taking pickup seriously.

I'd like to add that non-pickup games would be more fun too if people would take them as seriously as they're supposed to take pickups.

[vov]

I'll advertise for "fort9" on pickup channels. 50% more fort!

[Vogue]

To me, the bigger problem is people not taking pickup seriously.

I'd like to add that non-pickup games would be more fun too if people would take them as seriously as they're supposed to take pickups.

Public fort servers 9v9 or something, it's ridiculous. Make it 6v6 so it's less chaotic, there's literally no reason for 10v10 games.

[Monkey]

Pickup isn't killing tron, the community is......

Spot on.

...<insert lots of other well said stuff>...

Yep, couldn't have put it better myself.

...I believe that Armagetron will become a far more active game in the near future...

So do I.

[Cody]

...I believe that Armagetron will become a far more active game in the near future...

I don't see it.

ZERO introduction to the game for new players.
Interface NOT noob friendly.
Game play sucks, no one really wants to win at anything anymore. Its all become repetitive.

Pickup doesn't kill tron, it's the stand still of gameplay in tron. Ladle has been the same since day 1(yea you can argue theres been tweaks to how many people play on a team/ how big the holes are) but if you get down to it, its just a team trying to take over a zone, and all to do that is hole. Theres no variation to make it more fun. Oh boy a ladle bowl, oh look same teams same strategy same thing as ladle. What do we win? a new forum avatar(if you choose to use sine badge creator) You don't even get bragging rights anymore.

Thus could be said the same about all game modes, its all repetitive and stand still.

Thats why I dont play anymore, the only thing fun about tron was the drama(i know right? how can this be fun) It actually made ladles fun to watch(ID vs VcL , VcL vs Ww etc) People who actually wanted to beat the other team, not to get to the next round, but to actually beat the team and show they're better and of course to shit talk.

edit: i take the whole ladle has been the same since day 1. At least when there was drama ladle was fun to watch*