Armagetron Competitor's Club.

A place for threads related to tournaments and the like, and things related too.

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Jonathan wrote:
Lucifer wrote:The best player will be immune to lag, rather than use it as a crutch to explain why he's not such a good player.
I'm pretty much immune to constant lag of incoming data. But what if you stop receiving data for a sec? Or if your own turns can't reliably reach the server?
One instance in how many? It's not a question of how much it affects you at the time, it's a question of how much it affects your overall ranking. Build up a large enough statistical base, and the effects of sudden unstoppable lag become irrelevant.
Lucifer wrote:I further think that the best player should be determined off the ladder, ideally, and that the ladder itself should be addressed to do it. I don't really care if your ladder position suffers because you don't play often enough.
Only rounds/matches are seriously and permanently affected by that.

And I don't think the ladder, as it is now, is suitable. Basically all it does is give you points when you win a round, or take some away if you don't.
[/quote]

Right, which is why I said "the ladder should be addressed" to handle it.

There isn't any way to definitively determine who's the single best player. Seems like the best player should be able to play and dominate on any server, regardless of scoring, regardless of settings, and so forth.

If I were to go about setting this up, I'd want to run tournaments on each server amongst their regular players. Then I'd take the top ranked players on each server and pit them against each other in a tournament that spans all the servers, using consistent scoring for each (so the MBC guys would be at a disadvantage when the scoring is chosen to match the current most common scoring system). And I'd run the tournament in multiple rounds where each server clones one of the others, so Swampland would run with Tigers settings during a round, MBC settings during another round, and so forth for each server. That should eliminate the perpetual problem of some servers being easier to play than others because of ping, so someone who might be good on Tigers but isn't because of an unstable ping (and he's located in Tahiti) will have a change to play Tigers settings on the server that gives him a stable ping.

ANd then the whole series needs to be regularly repeated, because the best player is going to change over time. What is the turnaround exactly? How often does the current best player get toppled by someone else? Furthermore, how do you deal with the plain fact that the best player may not even get involved in the tournament series in the first place?

It's an ambitious undertaking, to try to determine the best player. I'd tend to want to set it up as a peer opinion thing, actually. Where your peers judge you based on a series of qualifications, and leave actual scoring out of it. The best player may never win any matches, not because he can't, but because he doesn't play for points. But maybe nobody can kill him, which would certainly rate him at least being "pretty good".

Anyway, yeah, I'm in agreement with everyone here, actually. I think it's going to turn out to be near impossible to determine definitively, and that if you don't like it, then don't get involved. That'll skew the rankings anyway, right? What if the best player protests the initiative and doesn't get involved?
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microbus
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Post by microbus »

Self_destructo should re-word his post then... to say
"best player of the ones who take part" instead of best arma player :)
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Jonathan
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Post by Jonathan »

Lucifer wrote:
Jonathan wrote:I'm pretty much immune to constant lag of incoming data. But what if you stop receiving data for a sec? Or if your own turns can't reliably reach the server?
One instance in how many?
From continuously to once per match or so, depending on an unknown.
Lucifer wrote:It's not a question of how much it affects you at the time, it's a question of how much it affects your overall ranking. Build up a large enough statistical base, and the effects of sudden unstoppable lag become irrelevant.
I don't live in your ideal world where everyone has equal lag, even if it's only in the long term. The difference is quite significant in my world.

microbus: "best player who participates according to a broken rating system"
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PDL
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Post by PDL »

i believe Self_Destructo was only advertising his site !! sheesh !!

Self_Destructo, you go ahead and have fun with your site :-)

it dosent really matter what the others think :wink:
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Lucifer wrote:It's not a question of how much it affects you at the time, it's a question of how much it affects your overall ranking. Build up a large enough statistical base, and the effects of sudden unstoppable lag become irrelevant.
I don't live in your ideal world where everyone has equal lag, even if it's only in the long term. The difference is quite significant in my world.
Far be it from me to disagree with you, Jonathan, but lag is a fact of the game. Complaining that you can't win because of lag is like complaining that you can't get a job. Certainly there are plenty of instances where it is true that you or I or anybody else can't win because of lag, just like there are instances where it is true that you can't get a job. However, you still must eat. And if you want to play, you still must deal with the lag. Therefore, the "best player" is someone who is going to be able to win, regardless of lag, regardless of how unequal lag may affect their playing, and regardless of the color of the sky in your world.

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Self_Destructo
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Post by Self_Destructo »

Geesh guys!

I have already thought a lot of this out ok? The scoring will be 1 point for a core dump and that only. No matter what setting there is. I understood that there had to be consistent scoring among the different configs. It is an interesting subject, and I think it will be alot of fun over all.

That is the point of any game anyways, to have fun. I just think it will be alot of fun for a good hard competition like this..... and yes, it will be repeted over and over and over again. So let's not get to obnoxious in our game here ok?
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Post by dlh »

Self_Destructo wrote:I have already thought a lot of this out ok? The scoring will be 1 point for a core dump and that only. No matter what setting there is. I understood that there had to be consistent scoring among the different configs. It is an interesting subject, and I think it will be alot of fun over all.
How do you measure core dumps? It probably would not be too difficult to log all server messages, and then write a script to sort out the points and add them to the correct user in your database. The downside is you will have to have a client sit in spectator all day, and I am sure most server administrators will not like that. Or unless this is just a scheduled match thing.

Also, just because some one gains many core-dumps does not make them the best. The best is a disputable term. The best what? Core-dumper? In ladder points, matches, running away, etc...
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Post by Self_Destructo »

nemostultae wrote:
Self_Destructo wrote:I have already thought a lot of this out ok? The scoring will be 1 point for a core dump and that only. No matter what setting there is. I understood that there had to be consistent scoring among the different configs. It is an interesting subject, and I think it will be alot of fun over all.
How do you measure core dumps? It probably would not be too difficult to log all server messages, and then write a script to sort out the points and add them to the correct user in your database. The downside is you will have to have a client sit in spectator all day, and I am sure most server administrators will not like that. Or unless this is just a scheduled match thing.
Actually, I am going to use my own custom connect server. This server will be setup to log all the console output. Then at the end of the day one of us Admins will look though the log. Yes, they will have to schedule it so I can have the server setup and make sure no dates conflict.
nemostultae wrote:Also, just because some one gains many core-dumps does not make them the best. The best is a disputable term. The best what? Core-dumper? In ladder points, matches, running away, etc...
Yes I know that. There are many ways of doing this and I am not sure exactly what would be considered the best..... but I am going to go by one to one competition right now. Whoever wins the 10 matches will be the winner of the match (no pun intended). We have to start somewhere, and I think this is the best way to start.
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Jonathan
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Post by Jonathan »

Lucifer: I'm not going to argue any further but I'm not convinced.
Self_Destructo wrote:Actually, I am going to use my own custom connect server. This server will be setup to log all the console output. Then at the end of the day one of us Admins will look though the log. Yes, they will have to schedule it so I can have the server setup and make sure no dates conflict.
I'd rather modify the server to dump [insert data needed] to a separate file.
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Self_Destructo
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Post by Self_Destructo »

^^ I would too, but I am not a programmer so I would not know how. :P
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Post by Lucifer »

Jonathan wrote:Lucifer: I'm not going to argue any further but I'm not convinced.
How about this:

If you're going to live in California, you have to live with earthquakes. If you don't want earthquakes, don't live in California.
I'd rather modify the server to dump [insert data needed] to a separate file.
Me too. :) (I can say this because I know I've posted numerous times on this exact subject putting forth this exact argument)
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Jonathan
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Post by Jonathan »

Lucifer wrote:
Jonathan wrote:Lucifer: I'm not going to argue any further but I'm not convinced.
How about this:

If you're going to live in California, you have to live with earthquakes. If you don't want earthquakes, don't live in California.
Okay, one more. How does that help you determine the "best player", who is "immune to lag"? (impossible to that extent)
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Jonathan wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
Jonathan wrote:Lucifer: I'm not going to argue any further but I'm not convinced.
How about this:

If you're going to live in California, you have to live with earthquakes. If you don't want earthquakes, don't live in California.
Okay, one more. How does that help you determine the "best player", who is "immune to lag"? (impossible to that extent)
He's the guy with the house that stood up through the 92 quake (or whatever year it was, it happened when I was in high school or so). I.e. he adapted to the situation.
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Jonathan
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Post by Jonathan »

What can you do against lag that is comparable to what you can do against earthquakes? (besides moving)
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Post by Self_Destructo »

ok, you two. You are both entitled to your opinion. But I do agree with Lucifer in that a good player would "adapt" to the lag.
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