statement of unease

[Lucifer]

so do you say "omg deal with liz/whoever yourself" to phyto when he gets called laufers or w/e he gets so pissed off about?

Yep, usually in PM's when he reports your posts. Which, of course, you wouldn't know about because they're PRIVATE.

Same way I tell you the same thing.

I don't know why you'd think it'd be any different, so quit whining about it and deal with it, like I've told you a thousand times before.

[Lucifer]

This is how I lead. It is not the kind of lead you are used to. I lead by following.

Then you need to quit whining when nobody takes the reigns. If you won't step up, who the hell are you to accuse anybody of anything for not stepping up in your place?

Do it, or don't, but quit complaining it doesn't get done when you continually choose not to do it.

[Kijutsu]

difference is my posts containing laufen get deleted, whereas laufers posts trying to ruin 2020s topics (succeeding too) don't get deleted

[2020]

If you don't want to deal with criticism, then ignore it. Simple as that. But if you want to lead, you NEVER EVER DEFEND YOURSELF. You SEE that IN THIS THREAD. Neither me nor z-man are defending ourselves, we're telling you how it is and you just need to accept it. Yes, we've read your criticisms, and we've thought about them, guarantee. We're not total asses. But do you see either of us going defensive? Do you see us counter-attacking?

I hold a space. That's all I do. I don't do defensive. I don't do offensive. Look at my signature, from day one: hold the line. I've been holding it ever since I found this game. The game is genius. Certifiable genius. The mad skills are genius. And just because I happen to appreciate some subtle (though I admit not particularly intellectually heavy-weight) observations, doesn't mean I have been deluded or weak.

Then you need to quit whining when nobody takes the reigns. If you won't step up, who the hell are you to accuse anybody of anything for not stepping up in your place?

I want a phase-shift! Given what has started with innocence (sharing an observation about a 6-year old), destroyed by aggression (Phyto's), and then weighed in on by the-powers-that-be (Z-man and Lucifer), I think this has surfaced something potentially useful. I am not passing on the reigns, I am putting out my hand to a team-mate. I open my invitation to any of the three of the triumvirate (though I am not even aware if Tank Program is still about to be honest), to have a one-to-one hour of discussion on g+ hangout regarding the future of this game. And of course, my original invitation to Phyto, should he wish to deal with his personal issue with me.

[Lucifer]

I am not passing on the reigns, I am putting out my hand to a team-mate.

No, you ARE passing on the reigns.

Look, I probably agree with your idea, although I haven't had enough time to read it, knowing that technically you haven't actually posted it. If you want me to take the reigns from you, go find a venture capitalist that'll take care of my financial needs and I'll be your champion. It would be nice if I could just do it, like I could have 5 years ago (and did when it was your Tronic progression, but I guess you forgot the role I played in making it succeed), but that's not the situation now.

You want team-mates? Offer them leadership. If you don't have that to offer, you won't get any teammates.

I didn't make the world work like it does, but you have to deal with it like it is.

[2020]

It would be nice if I could just do it, like I could have 5 years ago (and did when it was your Tronic progression, but I guess you forgot the role I played in making it succeed), but that's not the situation now.

Exactly -- you were one of the people who did make it succeed, in the end. I just don't want to go through the same initial agro this time -- apart from this.

You want team-mates? Offer them leadership. If you don't have that to offer, you won't get any teammates.

Um... can you remember my attempts to create my own team...? The Tronic Monkeys...? I couldn't even field a team. Nope, team-leader is not my thing.

I didn't make the world work like it does, but you have to deal with it like it is.

Neither did it, and yes, I am dealing with it the way it is, and using whatever is at my disposal to change it. Tron included.

I need your strength, Lucifer, but never again shall I go against it. I shall stand my ground, but I shall not set myself against you.

I need to go to bed now, since it is 4.08 here in the UK. I shall be up early tomorrow to record an interview on this computer. I can meet for an hour tomorrow. Let's do it.

[2020]

Well, I am up and alive. And the invitation is open any time for the whole day, and evening, Sunday 25 March 2012. G+ hangout, or even skype.

[Z-Man]

difference is my posts containing laufen get deleted

No. You get bans for it. You didn't last time because epsy was there first and he's too nice a guy. You know why: it's a name you made up specifically to annoy him and thus, continued usage is only intended to annoy and provoke and needs to be avoided. Is this so hard to either understand or to just follow?

Now that's out of the way, 2020: you still haven't reported the PMs. Since even the first one you posted publicly has been edited away before I saw it, I don't know what precisely it was you were so upset about. From the material I see, you both are responsible for escalating; of course, you think you only responded in kind, but that's the nature of things and you're wrong. The reason you're on the receiving end of lecturing is because you're the one complaining (and just to make it clear, I really don't know what you're complaining about because I haven't seen the material), and the reason it happens publicly is because of your choice.

You may not be intentionally be fighting for an audience, but you do anyway. That's how things go.

There was indeed no underhand insult or accusation in the passage you quoted, but that was not what I was referring to. The bit I already quoted was:

Does that mean you will prevent this kind of needless distraction the next time I post, or are you hoping that another mod will intervene?

Emphasis mine. And again, I don't mind.

We're having visitors around, I'll be busy today, and I'm not on G+. Why don't you simply post your suggestion here in a new thread (we can keep the hecklers out for this once if that makes you feel more like it) or come to IRC?

[2020]

Now that's out of the way, 2020: you still haven't reported the PMs. Since even the first one you posted publicly has been edited away before I saw it, I don't know what precisely it was you were so upset about. From the material I see, you both are responsible for escalating; of course, you think you only responded in kind, but that's the nature of things and you're wrong. The reason you're on the receiving end of lecturing is because you're the one complaining (and just to make it clear, I really don't know what you're complaining about because I haven't seen the material), and the reason it happens publicly is because of your choice.

I am responsible for holding my ground. I am not complaining. I am attempting to create the right conditions for an idea to be heard. And my choice to make Phyto's PM public triggered the level of confrontation we have had here.

I am no longer interested in following Phyto's antagonism, beyond extending the same invitation to him to meet visually and verbally on eg G+, or skype, though I shall forward the PMs if that is your procedure. I am much more interested in creating the opportunity to suggest an idea which might be useful for the community, of players as well as coders.

You may not be intentionally be fighting for an audience, but you do anyway. That's how things go.

I am not interested in fighting. Period. I am not embarrassed by it, and indeed it demonstrates how powerless one is in the face of aggression, or within a social context that allows that amount of aggression. That's how things have gone, but I am not longer interested in participating in that kind of way.

There was indeed no underhand insult or accusation in the passage you quoted, but that was not what I was referring to. The bit I already quoted was:

Does that mean you will prevent this kind of needless distraction the next time I post, or are you hoping that another mod will intervene?

Emphasis mine. And again, I don't mind.

You did indeed quote this in the other thread, and it ended with "Also, I prefer it [sic] to be insulted directly. If you want to call me a coward, do so."

I do apologise for this. There was no intention of insult, and certainly not even a suggestion of cowardliness. The words I should have used had I the linguistic control at the time, would have been "are you confident that another mod will implement the deletion of such aggressive posts?" There's no way I mean anything bad, and my "hope" was purely that an intervention occur.

We're having visitors around, I'll be busy today, and I'm not on G+. Why don't you simply post your suggestion here in a new thread (we can keep the hecklers out for this once if that makes you feel more like it) or come to IRC?

Thank you. As you have seen, my writing skills let me down and I trust a more human engagement of voice and visual. I am not time-pressured. If not today, then I can arrange to be in front of this computer next week, next sunday. Perhaps we can meet before the ladle? And I am happy to use skype if you have not opened a G+ account by then or object to its use. Or perhaps Lucifer might find himself free later today.

[Z-Man]

An apology was not needed, but accepted; you see how this works now? In the case of you and Phyto, I see two people, both with good intentions, none looking for a fight. Yet it happens. Fundamentally different viewpoints, people just defending their positions, add a few misunderstandings and you get an explosion. We moderators cannot prevent that, we would need to switch the forum to only display pre-screened posts for that. Practically nobody comes here just to cause trouble, some people just need to be reminded of that every once in a while (that's mostly looking at Liz).

I'm not really willing to do live voice/video chat these days. I never exactly was before, but now with the baby... she's either sleeping, then I don't want to wake her up, or playing, then I don't want to confuse her by speaking with a strange man on the box in a strange language (she is used to video chat with her aunt, that's not the problem). And the time before the ladle is the worst time. The ladle already is a huge block of time where I can't eat or feed properly, I don't want to extend that if it can be avoided.

[2020]

My apology is rather more precise than what you seem to have taken from it, Z-man. Phyto and my engagement was not equal at all, not in force or intent or manner, though I have stood up to his aggression. That you remain fixed in your perspective is disheartening, but considering that he has been a consistent part of this community over the years, and I have been sporadic at best, I understand.

Looks like Lucifer has not been free this evening.

I have a month to pull off what needs to be done in the real world. If we can arrange a time to talk before then, I think that would be best. I shall send my email to the three of you with the invitation that we speak in person some time. It may only need one of you. The sooner that happens, the sooner the topic can be brought to the attention of players, with whom I believe the proper authority of where this game goes resides. I hope I have not offended you by stating that.

[Lucifer]

Looks like Lucifer has not been free this evening.

I have a month to pull off what needs to be done in the real world. If we can arrange a time to talk before then, I think that would be best. I shall send my email to the three of you with the invitation that we speak in person some time. It may only need one of you. The sooner that happens, the sooner the topic can be brought to the attention of players, with whom I believe the proper authority of where this game goes resides. I hope I have not offended you by stating that.

As I indicated previously, I don't have time to deal with this. It'd be awfully nice if you'd quit presuming I'm going to suddenly have the time.

[2020]

I didn't presume.

I requested that we do it. I put the invitation out there. Since I happened to be in front of the right computer to be able to record the conversation yesterday (sunday), it was a matter of opportunity. There is no implied slight, accusation, insult, or assumption of any kind.

There is no need for any further engagement on this thread, unless it is actually positive. The invitation is still out there to have a one-to-one at some point over the next month. And in case this is interpreted wrongly -- this is not a demand, nor a threat, or has any negative connotation in its delivery. It is simply a clear and simple statement of intent, invitation, request. (Which is better than how I started this thread, that's for sure.)

To belabour the point: it is not essential that a conversation happen. It is merely an invitation to open a dialogue. Other options may arise if this does not happen, as already suggested by Z-man. I merely suggest that it is possible, and in my mind, it may be a good route for me, you, the community of players in general. That is my perspective, that is all. It suits my mode of communication better, and it may reduce the amount of disorder in terms of interpretation.

Be well!

[Z-Man]

Hey, you didn't say you would record the conversation. That makes me extra uncomfortable.
Look, from your past ideas, I extrapolate that this idea now is probably crazy. I don't know yet whether it's good crazy, bad crazy or just crazy crazy and I'm willing to find out, but a live chat definitely is not the best way. There is not going to be enough time to think properly. Your ideas need filtering before they are applied in the real world (like the Ladle: it's not really self organized in practice, it's a franchise. Some individual is still required to provide config files and make the brackets. And we completely ignored the crazy crazy growth plans). I need time to apply possible filters to your new idea before I can comment on it.

[Phytotron]

I'm not looking for escalation here, indeed the opposite. But honestly, this is what 2020's reaction to all this reminds me of:

leeloo shock 1.gif (416.51 KiB) Viewed 3130 times

Only, the difference, of course, is that the completely naive character there was witnessing some truly horrible, devastating tragedies for the first time. On the other hand, you have seriously overreacted and blown all this way way way out of proportion. Thin-skinned doesn't even begin to describe it. Under what conditions were you raised? You seem to want everyone to lie to you, coddle you, protect you from the real world. Learn to take criticism, for you seem to lack that capacity (despite your protests of standing up and "holding the line"). Previously, you've mostly just dismissed any legitimate criticism out of hand with flippancy and, again, your thinly-veiled, passive-aggressive insults. "You're unenlightened, you have problems, I'm wonderful." And, not incidentally, you have always completely ignored when other people in this "community" or on this forum are behaving poorly or are being mistreated. But now, with a legitimate criticism (whatever its form or tone)—as opposed to baseless antagonism—directed at you, you act like your world has been destroyed. You have "suffered badly?" Come on. Get a grip. You have not been bullied, and there's barely anything that could qualify as aggress[ion/ive].

And all this stuff about how the so-called "community" and forum have gotten "toxic" and whatever, and implying it's all my fault? Guy, where have you been? It's been as bad or worse for years. Contrary to your assertion, I have not "been a consistent part of this community over the years." I dropped out from both the forum and playing the game from 2006 through the end of 2009. And half the reason I dropped out was because the character of the "community" was going into the gutter. And in my estimation this forum only got worse in my absence (see the old ID threads for examples). In fact, I've tended toward laying partial blame for the deterioration of the larger "community" on the introduction of "special game modes" like Fortress, et al; and definitely that of this forum in particular on its becoming the central hub for organizing competitions like the Ladle. So put that in your pipe.

Now, this kind of stuff, citing as an example:

I am a team player. Anyone I have ever played with should testify to that. I have taken plenty for the team, in terms of sitting out, holing, and doing my best.

You remind me of these obsessed fans who have difficulty distinguishing reality from fantasy, believing the character in the TV show or movie is the real person, etc. And that has always been one of my criticisms against you and your "tronic progression": its detachment from reality and trivialisation of really serious, horrible problems in the world.

extending the same invitation to him to meet visually and verbally on eg G+, or skype

This was never going to happen. I don't do any of those things, even instant messaging; I don't even know what G+ is. And I don't know why you need that sort of visual and verbal interaction here. That's why I sent you a PM. And as Z-Man noted, that's a medium where one can be more thoughtful and consider what they say. But, you blew that.