...and thanks for the badge!!

[sinewav]

The bible is sometimes vague or describes an issue in a way we today aren't used to, but not against better judgement.

You're a smart guy Word. One day you'll come around and see the bible is full of irreconcilable nonsense; though it might take a decade or two. Just don't be ashamed when it happens. Recognizing it's all just a fairy-tale should be a eureka moment, not an embarrassing one. Remember, it's easy to get tricked when everyone around you is in on the joke.

[Word]

Point me to 5 such "nonsense" texts of the bible and I'll do my best to analyze them so they are comprehensible.

[chrisd]

Point me to 5 such "nonsense" texts of the bible and I'll do my best to analyze them so they are comprehensible.

Flowers for all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sinewav]

Ok, we'll make this easy and stick to the book of Deuteronomy. I've re-read the whole thing just so I understand "the context."

The beginning is the classic story of Moses and the 10 commandments. If you read the bible, you'll notice all the movies and children's books leave out the parts where the chosen people are commanded to slaughter every man, woman, and child as they leave Egypt and conquer then lands before them. Starting around verse 12, the Lord starts dishing out some new "commandments" that appear to be supplemental to the popular 10 graven in stone and resting in the ark...

Here are some good ones that make no sense at all (King James version):

13:1-10... If anyone asks you to turn away from God, they must be stoned to death (looks like I'm in trouble, haha!)

13:13-16... If you enter a city God has chosen for you, and the people there serve another god, then kill everything (even the livestock), burn the city to the ground, and never build there.

14:3-20... A comprehensive list of animals to eat, or not eat. God doesn't want you to eat pelicans. This is no joke.

16:3-8... God's fixation on bread. BREAD.

17:2-5... Anyone who worships the sun, moon, or anything else that isn't God must be stoned to death. Again. Must be an important commandment.

21:10-14... If you conquer a city and find one of the captive maidens attractive, shave her head, let her mourn the death of her parents for a month, then marry her. If she's not attractive, let her go -- but don't sell her!

21:15-17... If you hate your firstborn son, you can't cut him out of your fortune.

21:18-21... If your son is disobedient, it's OK to stone him to death.

22:5.... No dressing in drag. This really pisses God off.

22:10... "Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together." Luckily, most people will never have to opportunity.

22:11... "Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woolen and linen together." Unlike the above verse, this pretty much makes 99.99% of humans on the planet sinners against God.

22:20-21... Guess what happens to women who aren't virgins at the time of marriage? Yup, stoned to death.

22:28-29... If you rape a virgin and she's not engaged to another man, you have to pay her father 50 silver pieces and marry her forever. Of course the real question is, why would God force a woman to marry her rapist?

23:24-25... You know how you go into a grocery store and grab a handful of bulk food items (like nuts or candies) and eat them right in the aisle? That's actually OK with God.

After that, Moses goes on ad nauseam about who is blessed and who is cursed, and outlines a bunch of prophecies. Really, it's all a bunch of garbage. All the good bits you can have without the need for a God, but only with a God can you have the unbelievable silliness.

Go ahead and explain 5 of these. I dare you to not look ridiculous.


EDITS: Spelling.

[Word]

14:3-20... A comprehensive list of animals to eat, or not eat. God doesn't want you to eat pelicans. This is no joke.

16:3-8... God's fixation on bread. BREAD.

I think these two are already relatively easy to answer, but I haven't looked them up in the bible yet so I'll write a long explanation later if what I'm writing now doesn't apply here. so this is just a shot in the dark, purely based on my common knowledge and books I've last read about 3 years ago:

Pelicans were worshipped because people believed they'd pick their own chest to feed their children with their blood. I'm sure there were similar stories concerning other species. This is a common motive in the Christian iconography.



"Breaking bread" was another word for "eating" in Israel, because they didn't have much else to eat. By now I have collected about 4 pages about bread's different meanings deriving from their importance in Israel's everyday reality. There are indications that people thought their material life, material pains and death was like making bread (seed, mow, thrash, baking, eating). Somewhere in the bible, Jesus calls himself the "bread of life", hence eucharistic bread is considered to symbolize the 'eternal life', as opposed to 'normal' life, 'normal' bread.

I'll write more after I've found my bible somewhere and read enough to give more qualified answers.

[sinewav]

Word, in those passages God is not speaking metaphorically. He's talking about actual bread. And he's talking about animals you can and cannot eat. Nowhere does he mention that you can't eat a pelican because it's a pagan symbol. He also says you can't eat eagles, owls, bats, and insects.

This is God's law.

Also, you are totally walking into my trap. enjoy the ride, haha.

[Word]

He's talking about actual bread. And he's talking about animals you can and cannot eat. Nowhere does he mention that you can't eat a pelican because it's a pagan symbol. He also says you can't eat eagles, owls, bats, and insects.

Don't want to be disrespectful, but I think you don't get it. People then didn't know enough to clearly make a difference between 'metaphorical' and 'realistic'/scientifically provable as we understand it today. They were sure about pelicans doing this, or actual bread being similar to their lives. It's not mentioned explicitly because it was taken for granted (same for the other animals). You'll find that in Roman and Greek literature too (which is what I'm studying at university now, together with archaeology...), everywhere. Whatever other connonations are there, this is indispensable to understand an antique author's thinking.

[syllabear]

Word believes in God, sine doesn't. If one wants to change their mind, they'll do so at their own will.

Surely you two are smart enough to know that pushing the other to change their opinions will just drive their heads further into the sand?

[Jonathan]

That. You can gently nudge people sometimes. But generally it's pretty futile to pick on somebody else's religion or lack thereof. If anything both of you will be backed by others in your respective camps, but influencing the other camp is very rare. Indeed most will probably stick even closer to their camp. And yet it has to be done.

I'm out of here again.

[sinewav]

No, no. He invited this.

Point me to 5 such "nonsense" texts of the bible and I'll do my best to analyze them so they are comprehensible.

The bible is the word of God. You mean to say that when God told Moses these things, Moses didn't understand them? I find that hard to believe since the entire book of Deuteronomy is Moses going on and on about what God wants or doesn't want. God is very clear: don't eat pelicans.

Wait, are you implying that the bible is written by man and that lots of stuff is just made up because they were ignorant about the world around them? That God didn't clear these things up before they started writing it down and signing his name to it? You mean the bible is a bunch of stories written by some of the few people who knew how to write 3000 years ago? Shocking!

Also, don't be disrespectful to me. I just got done reading an entire book of the bible for this post and you aren't even double checking the verses. If you were, you would see these are not metaphors. Aren't you the one who stresses "context?"

[compguygene]

The bible is sometimes vague or describes an issue in a way we today aren't used to, but not against better judgement.

You're a smart guy Word. One day you'll come around and see the bible is full of irreconcilable nonsense; though it might take a decade or two. Just don't be ashamed when it happens. Recognizing it's all just a fairy-tale should be a eureka moment, not an embarrassing one. Remember, it's easy to get tricked when everyone around you is in on the joke.

Also, you are totally walking into my trap. enjoy the ride, haha.

It has been interesting to watch this topic unfold. I would just like to point out a couple simple things.

1. Consider the above statements by sinewav. There is nothing to be said that can convince him otherwise. In fact, in a way I will give more support to his statement. Christianity, and the Bible are things that can be accepted by faith. And that faith comes from God. Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God. We could spend tons of forum posts and time trying to prove that which we cannot prove.

2. Sinewav has had his revelation that the bible is full of irreconcilable nonsense. I would say that conversely, Word, you and I have had a revelation of quite the opposite nature. As such, sinewav and us are really at a logical impasse and can really only agree to disagree.

3. This refers back to point #1. No man can ever prove the existence of God. We who believe in the existence of God can point to evidence, and to those things which substantiate our faith. Our faith is not without substance, but to those who do not believe, it is foolishness.

[sinewav]

Word believes in God, sine doesn't. If one wants to change their mind, they'll do so at their own will. Surely you two are smart enough to know that pushing the other to change their opinions will just drive their heads further into the sand?

There are other people reading this besides those with strong convictions. Some people have doubts about their faith and threads like this actually help. I sincerely believe that these discussions do wake people up to the myths of religions. I've found that most people who are religious believe in God or whatever simply because their parents did, their community did. Many of them have never questioned what they believe and don't even know what a good question would be. My friend's wife is like that. She claims to be a Christian but I find her misquoting the bible all the time. She's never read it. She's never taken the time to investigate what she believes and why, yet she'll make claims like "so-and-so should go to hell." Imagine how awful hell would be if it existed. How deplorable to wish that on someone based on a criteria you've never seriously thought about. This is why I'll never give up fighting ignorance.

[sinewav]

No man can ever prove the existence of God.

True, he doesn't exist.

We who believe in the existence of God can point to evidence.

No you can't, because if there were evidence, that would be proof. It's obvious you don't make sense either. So take your happy god-feeling and your hollow bible quotes and go bugger off somewhere.

[syllabear]

Word believes in God, sine doesn't. If one wants to change their mind, they'll do so at their own will. Surely you two are smart enough to know that pushing the other to change their opinions will just drive their heads further into the sand?

There are other people reading this besides those with strong convictions. Some people have doubts about their faith and threads like this actually help. I sincerely believe that these discussions do wake people up to the myths of religions. I've found that most people who are religious believe in God or whatever simply because their parents did, their community did. Many of them have never questioned what they believe and don't even know what a good question would be. My friend's wife is like that. She claims to be a Christian but I find her misquoting the bible all the time. She's never read it. She's never taken the time to investigate what she believes and why, yet she'll make claims like "so-and-so should go to hell." Imagine how awful hell would be if it existed. How deplorable to wish that on someone based on a criteria you've never seriously thought about. This is why I'll never give up fighting ignorance.

If that was your intention, then you'd have no need to almost personally attack Word's specific beliefs, and would instead speak in a more general manner. Don't get me wrong, I stick by my above statement, in that you're both two sides of the same coin, but like a coin, you can only see the direction your side is facing in .

And I do agree that its easy to fall into the trap of being raised a Christian and simply carrying on the faith, yet professing some kind of higher authority. I'm not going to lie when I say I'd probably be on your side of the coin if my parents had shared opinions of yours (rather than being the devout Catholics they are). However, there are many people who do convert from non-belief (including a few I know myself, and no, they're actually quite intelligent before you ask). I liken this to another verse from the Bible: "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Interestingly enough, you could use it your own way, in that those who were brought up "clouded" by their parents' views have "seen the light" and chosen to opt out of religion.

At the end of the day, when people misinterpret the Bible, its just as painful for Christians, just as if you saw an atheist using a fallacious argument to justify his claims.

And so ends my little spiel, hopefully wasn't too painful to read, and you never had to do anyway

[sinewav]

Good post sylla. But I really want to get back to Word's explanations of wacky god-laws like why it's Ok to rape and kill.