How to make that game more popular?

What do you want to see in Armagetron soon? Any new feature ideas? Let's ponder these ground breaking ideas...
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syllabear
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by syllabear »

Getting new players from CTWF is also one way to introduce new players to fort.

@Phyto, if you don't have anything constructive to say, why not say nothing at all?
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þsy
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by þsy »

PICKUP PICKUP PICKUP

Nothing has been more damaging for the development of fortress than pickup. It creates a bounded space (only 12 at a time), within a bounded space (a server), which means that it is really only for those who can meet a certain standard of fort, and, have a certain knowledge of the game rules and pickup regulations.

Not only does it stop newbies accessing fort, but it also prevents normal forters (such as myself) from playing. If I want to play fort, I have to wait 20 mins till I can play. I'd then play for 20 mins, but then I might have to miss out the next match because I didn't sign up in time etc.

In the past, there'd almost always be someone on G5s or MB53s and I'd be playing constantly

Potential Solution

Limit Pickup to only being used after a certain time, or - even better - only on 1 or 2 days a week. For example, Wednesdays and Sundays only.
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by Word »

lalala...


http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=21637


I don't think that pickup can kill fortress, but it's less fun for me. As I've said somewhere else, MB's server is already exclusive enough (just like G5's was) and the people there are the same who play pickup, except the few that never take part because they dislike pickups.
Simple solution: Make a fort server without auth and shuffle limits again (like fort cafe) and let the newbies learn it from the start. they'll realize that they have to grind sooner or later - or someone will tell them. I'm a bit bored of the matches in Mega Fort where everyone knows what to do and it doesn't matter if one teammate dies because there's always someone who can replace him. As for shuffle wars, I'd prefer some implementation that gets a player suspended after trying to shuffle to the same position 5 times in a match (a def can play from practically any position so it's enough to keep the two doublegrinders if he shuffles out before he becomes one of the wings). In normal fort, the teams are more random and if a nongrinder is the last man standing, that just adds more suspense for me. Yes, there needs to be a place for pros to prove how good they are - there are still 6-8 Ladle servers where you can do exactly the same as in pickup, without irc.
Last edited by Word on Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Z-Man
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by Z-Man »

You're underestimating the amount of work a proper in-game tutorial takes. Essentially, you need all the infrastructure of a fully fledged single player component, the only bit you can half-ass there is content loading.
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þsy
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by þsy »

Word, don't be so unbelievably dismissive, please! The fact that this discussion is still occurring, and that more people have expressed concern since the last discussion shows that it's becomming a more accepted belief that pickup is too constricting for a public game.

The issue now is not that pickup ruins the fun of public fort, but that it is preventing the fortress community from expanding (and with players always leaving, perhaps even shrinking the community!)

I believe a tutorial would be useful, but as Z-man pointed out - it'd be insanely long and hard to implement it. Regardless of tutorials, we all managed to get into tron and find our way. Maybe food for thought, but the really issue is this:

- There is clearly a correlation between usage of pickup and lack of usage of public fortress servers. More pickup = less public fort. I hope this can be more or less agreed upon.

- There is arguably (for lack of empirical evidence) a correlation between the popularity and usage of pickup and the lack of new players coming to fort.

Pickup has always been used, but often came and went in popularity. In the last 3-4 months however, it's use has become more and more prevalent to the point where public fort (i.e. MB53s server) is nearly non-existent (or occurring at off-peak times during the day).

As a community, we need to establish what is important and what we can afford. Personally, I believe that a priority of a community such as ours is that we always need to be encouraging new players, and we cannot afford to not do this.

Pickup is a lot of fun, and shouldn't be chucked out. But it needs to be restricted. Pickup itself is self-regulated and clearly works - there are rules that members of the community follow and admins who regulate those rules. Implementing set days for pickup would be easy to moniter and a simple solution to something that could be inevitably detrimental for the progression of fort

So let me reiterate: Limit Pickup to 1 or 2 days a week, leave the rest of the time for public games
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by AI-team »

Maybe we should try to suspend pickup for 2 weeks?
  
 
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by Word »

psy wrote:the issue now is not that pickup ruins the fun of public fort, but that it is preventing the fortress community from expanding
Don't you see that you're confusing cause and effect?
Less games with newbies = less fun for newbies = no point to play or get better for 99% of the newbies.

And MB53's Mega Server is not public fort, even if you don't need to be on IRC. Fort Cafe was public fort.
Last edited by Word on Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Slov
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by Slov »

I don't think we should really officially "restrict" it, let's just stop using it so often. Every time I'm in MB53s/Empha's I get msgs to add for pickup.. we're a enough small community to just make a deal.
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compguygene
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by compguygene »

Its kinda sad that this discussion has degenerated into how can we keep Fortress growing. But, since it has, I have something to say. Very few of you interact ever with the "noob teams". Personally, I love to and to help teach them. Here are my observations of a sub-culture of Fortress that you all have completely ignored.

1. A few of them have setup their own servers, most notably TronZero Noob Fortress. However, since very few skilled Fortress Players actually play with them and teach them, its a lot harder for them to master Fortress, than if they could play in a server like Fortress Cafe was.

2. Some of them have tried pickup, and find it either too difficult, or the culture not to be fun at all. Personally, these are the reasons why I and others that are friends of mine don't really play Fortress much any more.

3. On a positive note, Compguygene's Megafortress Pro has been getting some play at night among US Fortress players, I am going to take off the "Pro" from the SERVER_NAME and removing the auth.

In the past, Fortress has picked up many players from HR/DF/CTF. This has happened very little in the last year, with no "Open" Fortress server that is popular anymore. Personally, I envision that HR/DF is going to begin to grow more. This is going to happen more as I am organizing and participating in the organization of Monthly tournaments for said game modes. There are also plans in the works to grow CTF more as well.
If the Fortress Community wishes to do things to engender growth, there are many changes that should be made. The way things stand, Fortress is becoming an "exclusive club" whose membership is difficult to attain. If you wish to honor 2020's vision of the Ladle, you will do things to make the game mode more accessible. Should you choose to continue the way things are, Fortress will continue to grow, albeit slowly. Fortress will also be eclipsed by other game modes that are more accessible to new players/teams.
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by Word »

compguygene wrote:Here are my observations of a sub-culture of Fortress that you all have completely ignored.
we haven't, Fragile's team takes part in the TPL. ;)
In the past, Fortress has picked up many players from HR/DF/CTF. This has happened very little in the last year, with no "Open" Fortress server that is popular anymore.
We had the OpenFort server, and it was well received - we just have to put it back up again.
If you wish to honor 2020's vision of the Ladle
With all due respect, I know 2020 did a lot to make fort more popular (does anyone know what happened to him?) but nobody of us plays to live someone else's daydream. Dog Fight/HR are far more exclusive than fortress, and there were times when the same had applied for CTF.
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by Slov »

^ yeah compguygene, it's not just fort that's dying, it's tron in general... when I came online few years back at evening, there used to be a lot of servers with people in it.. I remember Ww CTF was always full, then there were few sumo servers and a fort server, DDL, Cheers, DF servers, etc.
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by -*inS*- »

Perspective of a 'selfish' pickup player:

I think pickup is a lot more competitive than normal fort which is what makes the game fun for me. It's no fun when your team (or the other team) isn't really trying. In mega fort people just do whatever, there's no leader of each team, less teamwork which makes for a worse game. If we were to limit pickup, I'd probably find a better use for my time - megafort just can't replicate the same experience.

I agree pickup has made public fort games more rare, but has that stopped new teams from forting? No...you just see them less than you would if you were playing megafort.

The inherent problem (not really even a problem) is the number of people playing this game, if you play this game and read this forum you will obviously hear about fortress a lot and probably play end up playing it (if you enjoy it). Notice how fort-dominated this community has become, the problem is not attracting tron players to fort, it's attracting people to tron.

Pickup is great, just give noobs less grief if they want to learn. I remember teen teaching a noob (who had never played fortress) how to play center in pickup, really it's not pickup that matters it's your attitude that does.

Sidenote: I'm not a fan of it being necessary to go on irc to play pickup, but it is what it is...
Last edited by -*inS*- on Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by -*inS*- »

doublepost :x
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syllabear
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by syllabear »

Just want to reiterate and clarify my earlier post.

As it is, there are 2 streams of players into fortress:

1) Directly into fortress from outside of armagetron

2) Into fortress from another game mode. This can further be split into
a) Fort-similar gametypes such as CTWF, sumo, and to a lesser extent, ctf (zones present, more complex gameplay style)
b) Non-fort similar gametypes, such as dogfight, HR, wildcat, etc.

Therefore, there should be different approaches to attract from the different areas.

In my opinion, the most likely chance of adaption is from 2a), and I think a good example of this was Tu, which moved several good, active players from CTWF and other fort-similar servers into the fort communtiy (including Syre, Elmo, Over and bmg, who are all active fortress players).

However, Fofo's approach is more orientated towards players who do not play tron, the area I feel has the least retention rate (in my personal experience, less than 1/10 of players who I introduced tron to play it longer term, and I believe the figure is probably closer to 1/50 since nobody has stuck with it indefinately), HOWEVER it has the most potential, since a lot of people haven't played tron yet :D

I think we need to work at a three-pronged approach to this, which includes advertising this game to outsiders, getting them to play it (not just fort, but any part of the game, especially the online community part); recruiting players from HR and DF and other non-fort like games to fort-like games such as sumo and possibly straight to fort, and finally; movin those from fort like games into fortress using more relaxed servers as suggested in this thread.
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Re: How to make that game more popular?

Post by compguygene »

Word wrote:
compguygene wrote:Here are my observations of a sub-culture of Fortress that you all have completely ignored.
we haven't, Fragile's team takes part in the TPL. ;)
They probably wouldn't have known much, if anything about TPL had I not told them. By ignoring, I am referring to the lack of interaction on the part of most regular Fortress Players. Of course, the lack of a venue for this contributes to the problem
compguygene wrote:
Word wrote:In the past, Fortress has picked up many players from HR/DF/CTF. This has happened very little in the last year, with no "Open" Fortress server that is popular anymore.
We had the OpenFort server, and it was well received - we just have to put it back up again.
I just want to point out to you something you seem to be forgetting, OpenFort was not really played much by the larger community. If it was a success, then please name 2 players or 1 team that developed from it.
If you wish to honor 2020's vision of the Ladle
With all due respect, I know 2020 did a lot to make fort more popular (does anyone know what happened to him?) but nobody of us plays to live someone else's daydream. Dog Fight/HR are far more exclusive than fortress, and there were times when the same had applied for CTF.[/quote]
More exclusive than Fortress? I have to beg to differ.
Barrier of entry to HR/DF: Join any server where people are playing, no auth needed, and learn to play the game mode.
Barrier of entry to Fortress: Find a server where people are playing. Get asked to leave, because it's a clan practice or clan challenge. Or, if your lucky, go to MB53's server or a Ladle server where people are playing. Oh wait, how do I join a team. If somebody tells you how to auth, and usually they don't, get setup with auth. Go back to the server, if people are still there. If they are, within 10-15 minutes they leave to go play pickup. So, you go to the pickup server, or maybe you start there. You can't play there either. You give up and go back to playing in a server that you normally play in. Obviously this "Fortress" stuff looks fun, but whats the point when you can't play.

And again, we are still focused on Fortress. Insa said it best. What is needed is to attract more people to Armagetron, period. I see nobody has asked yet to write an article..... Any interest? I can do it on my own, and will. But, it would go so much quicker if any of you was willing to just write a few articles....
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