Fortress Suggestion: lower WALLS_STAY_UP_DELAY

[apparition]

How about setting the wall_delay to a value a little lower than the time it takes for one player to conquer a zone? This way, the dead walls retain some usefulness/annoyance and we use current settings to dictate other settings (like this thread on holes).

Code: Select all

# The basic rules are like this:
#
#    1 defender and 1 attacker: the fortress is unconquerable
#    1 attacker and no defenders: the fortress will be conquered in about 5 seconds

So, maybe 4 seconds?

Shorter wall_delay will affect the grind too. But it should also get the attack going faster too, which might reduce the number of super-long matches in Ladle (a reoccurring problem).

One thing a shorter delay will affect negatively, in my opinion, is the ability for a lone defender to suicide and save the zone. But then again, maybe a defender who does such a thing needs to be punished?

Just like hole size, 8 (second?) wall stay up delay was arbitrary. I think the changes we're making in fortress lately are inspired by the desire to define fortress rules relevantly and purposefully (as opposed to arbitrarily). The thought to reduce how long the walls stay up has consciously crossed my mind a few times when playing. Lacka made a good point, but more often I find myself annoyed than happy that the walls remain up so long (dying at start and when someone holes and the defender dies). So, I think it's a good suggestion and worth experimenting with.

[owned]

I would disagree with a shorter WALLS_STAY_UP_DELAY if only because it would further strengthen the defending side. I don't think we want that.

[sinewav]

I would disagree with a shorter WALLS_STAY_UP_DELAY if only because it would further strengthen the defending side. I don't think we want that.

Now that I think of it, I believe it would make defending harder. Here are a few scenarios...

Dead trails from the grind: Ok, so your teammate dies and leaves a dead trail. Luckily this trail will disappear before you complete your lap around the zone and you'll be able to seal your defense. Well, sometimes. Currently the early deaths in the grind disappear before you get around anyway. But the late ones? No, those are still going to screw you over.

Center attacks: Oh noes a center attack! But all is not lost because the attacker died when you sealed the back of the grind correctly. And that dead trail will be gone in 4 seconds... no wait, someone else already followed the previous guy and died. I guess I'll wait another 4 seconds... wait, there goes another one down the center. Will it end?

Sumo in the zone: Yikes! It's 2v2 and there is a 3rd attacker outside the zone waiting to get in! Luckily, we have most of the zone reco... *explosion* Crap! My teammate died, and I can't cover his area before his dead trail drops! Were screwed!

Defender and sweeper trade: As a sweeper, have you ever had a defender die, then gone through his hole and recover the defense completely before his trail dropped? You're a superstar when that happens! Guess what? I won't happen ever again. You won't have a full 8 seconds to get around the zone back to the end of your trail.


For each of these scenarios, you can probably come up with one that helps the defense more that the attack. But ultimately, wall delay does more to help defense than offense. This is because attackers must get past walls to get into a zone. That's the basis of the game. The fewer walls there are to get past, the more successful an attack can be.

If we want a less defensive game, adjusting the wall delay is a good place to start.

[owned]

Dead trails from the grind: Ok, so your teammate dies and leaves a dead trail. Luckily this trail will disappear before you complete your lap around the zone and you'll be able to seal your defense. Well, sometimes. Currently the early deaths in the grind disappear before you get around anyway. But the late ones? No, those are still going to screw you over.

With only four seconds, if a person dies late in the grind, their tail would be gone if the defender starts with a large defense, if they start with a small defense, it's only a matter of under a second of waiting before it goes away. So the defender has a better chance of being able to form a full defense with the new wall delay.

Center attacks: Oh noes a center attack! But all is not lost because the attacker died when you sealed the back of the grind correctly. And that dead trail will be gone in 4 seconds... no wait, someone else already followed the previous guy and died. I guess I'll wait another 4 seconds... wait, there goes another one down the center. Will it end?

I would argue that this is the most clear cut case of a short wall delay helping the defending team. I've played countless matches and center, and many times I've died. However, it still helps my team because they can grind my dead trail. Limiting the wall delay to 4 seconds doesn't give my teammates enough time to do so. (You say it does, but note that positions 2 and 3 probably won't be able to grind down because they just used a lot of rubber, and pos 4 and 5 are blocked by the positions 2 and 3 of both teams.)

Defender and sweeper trade: As a sweeper, have you ever had a defender die, then gone through his hole and recover the defense completely before his trail dropped? You're a superstar when that happens! Guess what? I won't happen ever again. You won't have a full 8 seconds to get around the zone back to the end of your trail.

I'll give you this one, but then again, the offense on the opposing team will no longer be able to do it either.

Sumo in the zone: Yikes! It's 2v2 and there is a 3rd attacker outside the zone waiting to get in! Luckily, we have most of the zone reco... *explosion* Crap! My teammate died, and I can't cover his area before his dead trail drops! Were screwed!

Look above.

For each of these scenarios, you can probably come up with one that helps the defense more that the attack. But ultimately, wall delay does more to help defense than offense. This is because attackers must get past walls to get into a zone. That's the basis of the game. The fewer walls there are to get past, the more successful an attack can be.

In general, I would agree with you. However, the placing of the walls also matters. The defense is hurt whenever a wall is in their zone, just like the offense is hurt whenever a wall is not in or immediately next to it. So I think that shortening wall delay would do the opposite. It would only strengthen the defense.

[sinewav]

It would only strengthen the defense.

Well, the only way to find out is by testing it. I wish you were there the day we changed it in DS Mega. No one really noticed anything was different, although, K-Yo mentioned that he felt like the rounds went a lot faster. Is that a case for a weaker defense? I don't know yet.

[Titanoboa]

You're making lots of good points, but all I see is you guys trying to make fortress easier. If it isn't obvious to you that you're increasing the luck factor in fortress by doing this, I guess I can try to explain when my head doesn't hurt..

Why would we want more luck in fortress?

[sinewav]

If it isn't obvious to you that you're increasing the luck factor in fortress by doing this...

No, it's not obvious. Can you please explain?

There is really only one goal that I can see in changing any settings: to make Fortress less defense-centric and give players more incentive to attack. Maybe there is no solution to be found in the settings, but it's worth testing ideas like wall_delay and holes and scoring and whatever.

Titan, weren't you there that day we tested quicker walls? Did you even notice? Because most people didn't.

[2020]

played on zman's server
and the extending wall trail was rather off-putting...

where do we want to record our experiences if these experiments
here...?