feedforward: the tronic experiment

[MaZuffeR]

but there is a range of skills
and enough players in the community for it to be continuous

in arma fortress
there are those who can
and those who can't
with a big gap

If it's such a big gap can you give me some examples of the differences between the players who "can" and the ones who "can't"? I want to know where the gap is in your opinion.

[Lucifer]

I'm one who can't.

[philippeqc]

well, i've already started some in an external php script, i think it wouldn't be that hard to port it to C++/arma

Let's see it!

edit: It wasn't intended to be a « tournament regulator », but it's moddable, so we can manage to do it...

The reason why I prefer such a construction as I've proposed is that it allows pretty much any configuration, and allow the users to create easily.

It's to do the "minotaur" when you play in a labyrinth, it's to allow "pac-man" modes, it's to have elimination modes, it's to have tournament where only pre-registered players can join, and mostly, it's for anything else that I haven't thought of, but that someone else will.

The whole issue of making different rules for rounds has been around probably way before I joined the forum, so I guess it won't move away anytime soon. Also, people are full of ideas, and I'm short on time. So if I (hopefully) give them tools to make what ever type of round or team grouping mechanism, then its a good investment for the project.

btw, i think i'ill need help for moduling in C++

Ok, I'll do my best!

it is not really a problem with lack of configurability wrt rounds servers teams but new players joining teams

Yes, an excellent point. Human factor will always out weight automation. I'm not aiming to force a mechanism, I'm rather allowing for an anchor point should someone decide that such a mechanism becomes required.

Think back when I made the axes system (ok, you where not there, so I'll recap: me: "He, axes could be fun" people:"No, 300 axes will be lame!"). It wasn't because I wanted all the games to use them, not that I had a clear idea what would be fun (well, actually, I had high hopes for 6 and 8 axes). I like fortress and love CTF, both runnign fine with 4, but the Chichos are quite phenomenal!

------------ it is important to draw a separation here -----------------

we have to isolate exactly why more players aren't joining
with eg maz suggestions and tank's
and once we get an accurate enough evaluation of the situation
we come up with a solution
which me then ask developers to perhaps help with
though perhaps this might not be needed;
it might be that the solution is merely player-implementable...

** I'll assume that you are asking why more new players aren't joining in general, and not why more new players aren't joining the tournaments, as for that I've already tipsed that you could make it attractive to them by making "classes" or simply a "newbie" tournament**

I think the problem needs to be divided in 3.
a) Why aren't more new players coming to the game?
b) how to make people interested to explore it?
c) why aren't we retaining more of the new players that come to the game?

For the first one, I'm a bit at lots. Hopefully someone else will come with some nice creative ideas!

For the second one, I think we REALLY need a good introduction to the game. Many of the game concepts are not "natural". Grinding and rubber comes to mind here. A text tutorial, better default values on the local game, more challenging AI, an "automatic" tutorial, anything, but something to make them understand the impact and possibilities of such tools. It should raise their interest in the game. (secondary impact: This way, when they actually try a game online, they have that experience, and can concentrate on the new multi-players strategies that unroll around them.)

For the third one, well, we should try to clean up the mentality a bit on the big servers, question of making sure new players do get a good welcome when joining, and come back. Maybe we should "clean-up" the inactive servers. Maybe it should be something they do automatically, like "if there hasn't been at least 10 players that played more than 5 min in the last 2 weeks, then it just shut down". A way of saying that an admin has to make it interesting for the public, rather than being yet another "I dont care enought to change off the default values, how comes nobody joins! ". Maybe we should organize the popular servers, the ones where 80% of the people hang out, and have shared admins on them (not the configuration setter type, but the kicker and banner types), they migth spot trouble makes as they wander from one banned server to the next, and when they dont get a clue, they get eligible to the "no access on any of the fun servers for a day/week/month/year/life-time". Maybe its having a summer where potty mouth are kicked on sight (ok, second offense. a "shit I missed that" could be tolerated, but I'm still waiting for a proper usage of "omfg, what a noob u r, are u re'tard too!"). Maybe we would need a new player server, that always appears first on the list on the master server, where people play as regular, but are there first and foremost to lend hand out to new players.

But these are only a few ideas, what are yours?
Did you see anything that made you shout "there's something I could do!"?

-ph

[2020]

it's a team game
guys

and can i repeat
the skill range is gradable...
bad players can play against bad players
medium players against medium etc

fortress seems to have one level:
hard
since the players who regularly play are too good...
and new players aren't going to join an empty server that hosts a team game
in the hope that new players also join...

[Lucifer]

Man philippe, I really really really really like the last suggestion. To be listed on our master server, you have to have players. Not all the time, certainly, but at some regular interval. Maybe we could delegate the rest to a shit-list of servers that are running, but known to not have any players, so people could still see them, they would just normally see a list of servers that have players or are expected to get players in the next few hours. Full stop there. (You know, before someone suggests a moderation mechanism for servers and distracts that part of the discussion)

[DDMJ]

The only reason I started playing fortress was because whenever I would connect to the Server Browser, 'CVS Test Server: Fortress' was nearly full every time of the day.

I guess the same goes towards my server. To be honest, I hate it, the settings suck, etc, but people are attracted to the servers with the most people.

At nighttime my time (PST), the chances you will see players in Fortress Café or Wild West Fortress are very slim.

I mean, after all, isn't Bugfarm Elimination Sumo being run on the same machine that Bugfarm Fortress was?

Maybe you could rename it .

Then again, there's nothing wrong with Café.

It seems that the newer players tend to come into a Fortress/Sumo server, then move to a Medium rubber server, then finally settle in a High rubber server.

But, probably the biggest problem is behavior towards the newer players. I rarely see players REALLY TRY AND HELP the newer ones. It always seems as if they get kicked immediately.

You never know how good the players could get...and in a short ammount of time.

About 2 weeks ago, this guys named 'hoop' came into Café and he was TKing everyone, driving into the zones, grinding way too hard and dying, etc, etc.

3 days later, he was doing pretty well; no TK's, no getting in the defense's way, he could attack and defend decently.

Same goes with SageLord. He was god awful, but Legit and I saw he was a cool guy and was willing to learn. We taught him some basics and a week later he was pretty good.

Oh well, I don't really know how to help the 'Spectator Situation.' Maybe all spectators are silenced/can only communicate with other spectators.

[Flex]

That is not fully the case DDMJ. Some new people don't/can't communicate or react to what you're telling them so they get almost an instant kick when in other times a new player talks they (as far as when I've been there.) have always been welcomed and explained the basics. But I have also noticed that they have been later on kicked or treated badly by the fact of TK'ing or not doing anything correctly. Which is also a factor in learning and a negative aspect in self learning.

When I first started I only got kicked for doing things wrong and I didn't take that too harshly as I knew I was not playing the game correctly. I did find that I was not too happy about the lack of servers that I could go to without being scrutinized. But fundamentally I had some sort of idea of how to play the fortress game. Learning my grinding and splitting in the same week.

A guide or introduction to any game is the key to building a player. Some prefer to skip the manual (like me) but some need it for the success, providing both is a step forward.

[2020]

a tutorial-film-like-thing could be interesting
if it couldn't be so easily side-stepped
more a pleasure to experience
rather than an instruction manual...

vids of the game might be good
combined with exercises
and some upfront vid coverage of player's reactions
might give it some colour

[Hoax]

A video with the game would be a good idea as far as I can see. With the basics of fortress explained, there isn't really alot to learn initially. If one knows how to grind and then split..., newcomers would come into a fortress game with the right idea about whats going on.

Having a separate server for 'noobs' probably wouldn't work due to the fact that, as durka said players join popular servers.

Then again, maybe we don't need to do anything? The way it is at the moment only the 'commited' players, or ones with half a brain stick at it.

[~*PsYkO*~]

I don't think you can really say "most people start in fortress then move to mid rubber then to high rubber" It all depends on where you are attracted to at the earliest stage, how fast you get bored with it, and what catches your eyes next. We are humans after all, we are all individuals, not a bunch of bugs that are pre-destined to breed, eat, and die lolz

[Joe]

I don't think you can really say "most people start in fortress then move to mid rubber then to high rubber" It all depends on where you are attracted to at the earliest stage, how fast you get bored with it, and what catches your eyes next. We are humans after all, we are all individuals, not a bunch of bugs that are pre-destined to breed, eat, and die lolz

I don't know about some of the people on here, I know a couple of people from AA that are pretty much destined to do just that. But it's going to be funny to see how stupid there offspring will become

[Lucifer]

I don't think you can really say "most people start in fortress then move to mid rubber then to high rubber" It all depends on where you are attracted to at the earliest stage, how fast you get bored with it, and what catches your eyes next. We are humans after all, we are all individuals, not a bunch of bugs that are pre-destined to breed, eat, and die lolz

He didn't finish the progression. See, what he gave is the start of the progression up to the first decision. It's what you do whenever you start something. You first dive in, see that it's hard, go to a lesser level, see that it's still hard, then go to the beginner's level and practice.

At this point, most people make one of two choices: They get better, or they become complete smegheads.

The ones that get better go back to mid rubber, then low rubber (and play fort, sumo, etc).

Apparently the ones that become complete smegheads go harass joe on CTF servers.

[DDMJ]

What I was getting at Psyko was that the newer players seek more rubber. After all, the more rubber, the harder it is to die.

Another thing to look at is the ratio of European Fortress players to American/Canadian Fortress players as well as the ratio of European High Rubber players to American/Canadian High Rubber players.

There are way more American High Rubber servers than there are European. It is not often that you find a European playing in the XZL or ID servers.

On the other hand, there are way more European Fortress servers than there are American.

At nighttime my time, it is very rare to see players in Wild West Fortress. Occasionally some players play in CTWF, but there isn't a high crowd most of the time.

However, during moring -> afternoon for me, Fortress Café is always loaded with players.

I wouldn't really say that the reason for the lack of American Fortress players would be that there aren't enough Fortress servers, but rather that the overwhelming number of High Rubber servers attracts them more.

[Joe]

@Durka: it's mostly the fact that when a 'newbie' from north america joins all people see is high ping, doesn't grind, kick him he's lagging the server. And thus the person is kicked from the server with no help, so they join another server with people in it (next in line is usually a stupid rubber server like DDL, ID, XZL) and they don't get kicked, they don't die as easily so they stay there.

[DDMJ]

Hmmm, also because in Fortress, it's a team game, so if someone is a newer player and not knowing what to do, they screw everyone up. In Sumo or most other servers, since it's FFA, if they are new and don't quite know how to play, they aren't hurting their 'team' so they most likely won't get kicked.

It's like, how many times have you seen someone being kicked from Sumo because they were a 'noob'?