First TRONIC Bowl

[owned]

Another thing that held up our half of the bracket was our match vs arrow. We had to restart the match 3 times after playing like 3 rounds in each because arrow wasn't ready.

[Concord]

I don't remember that at all. We were finishing the match that had started when everyone entered the server and the next match naturally started. After 1 round of the next match both teams were ready and we started.

You also came late to that match, so perhaps your source of information might be confused?

Was it ID that slowed it down? We did wait for that match to end for about 20 minutes.

[hoop]

problem 1: delay
solution:
start the match when it's scheduled, regardless teams not ready, missing people, etc... teams have enough time to setup and adapt to the server

problem 2: late final
solution:
let's say 22 GMT is too late to start a best of 5 game:
if that happens, only if both teams agree the final will be normally played, otherwise it will be postponed to the next sunday

problem 3: summer time
anyone realized that?
with standard time (winter/fall) 18 gmt = 18 in UK
with summer time (summer/spring) 18 gmt = 19 in UK
but school/work times don't change, so basically during spring/summer we start tourneys one hour later than during winter/fall
solution: begin tourneys at X GMT hour during winter, begin tourneys at X-1 GMT hour during summer

[owned]

I don't remember that at all. We were finishing the match that had started when everyone entered the server and the next match naturally started. After 1 round of the next match both teams were ready and we started.

You also came late to that match, so perhaps your source of information might be confused?

Was it ID that slowed it down? We did wait for that match to end for about 20 minutes.

I'm an idiot. I meant to say arrow.

/me edits post.

Just to make sure that team captains know. If you have taken the time to list your global ID, the Wild West =Ladle Server= will have your id active with admin access the day of the bowl, and in all future ladles. Also, you will now have admin level access forever, unless abused, in the following servers of mine. TheServerPharm: Fortress Freedom! The ServerPharmEU: Fortress Freedom! TheServerPharm: Sumo Freedom! These servers were meant to give the community some extra servers for tournaments, clan/team practices and clan/team wars. For more information check out this post: http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 65&t=19376 and this post http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 65&t=19377

I just noticed this. Thanks!

[SageLord]

wait a second, i didnt realize what happened last night until now! arrows played one extra match than twix, we played 4 consecutive matches before the final and got majorly postponed time-wise due to long matches and some teams not turning up on time. by the time we made it to the server ready to go, it was qurater to midnight (the match was supposed to start at 21:00GMT) and one of our players had to go to bed because of school/work. arrow then requested we postponed the final till another date when it wasnt so late. naturally the american players complained about this, because it was 7PM where they were..

i myself didnt play at all because ive got exams on at the moment, but i dipped in and out of a few matches to see how we were doing.. at that point ^ i went to bed

so am i right in thinking that you wouldnt cave in, the final went on (5 arrows vs 6 twix), then arrow won the first match and then decided to leave because it had gotten to ridiculous o'clock and they were tired? so by default, twix won?

and before you go on about how long you'd waited for us to play, do remember that we had to wait in between all of our matches for teams to show up which is why you waited in the first place!

i really am sorry if i got my facts wrong, thats just what ive gathered from a few people. im not trying to whine or acuse anyone of anything, i just think its a bit of poor play from the twix team, refusing to play it on a more appropriate date than for themselves!

and seriously - apologies if ive got my facts confused

Ok, first of all, rules are rules, and there's no disclaimer in the ladle (bowl) rules that says if it gets too late, we play another day.

Another thing, the dates that arrow clan proposed to play on, a few of our members said they weren't going to be able to show up. For armagetron, it seems like things must be scheduled at least a few weeks in advance to get full teams to show up, and even still, twisted rats manages to play with shorter and shorter teams. Why would we pass up the chance to play when we have a full team?

I don't feel like we broke any rules, nor do I feel like we overstepped our bounds by wanting to continue after sitting around and waiting for over an hour. If you guys want to play a rematch, I'm sure that would be fine with us.

And also, props to arrow for sticking around and playing all 3 matches, even though they were all tired.

[sinewav]

hoop's got it. I think we can do this and get back on track. It seems like every server needs to have someone who will "lay down the law" and start a match at the designated time.

I know some matches will run late, so maybe if a team isn't there at the designated time due to a match in progress, the server admin will start the new match no later than 5 minutes after the first late player arrives.

Sound simple enough? Now we just need reliable people to admin the servers...

[~*PsYkO*~]

I wish we could have independent admins but I'm sure it will never happen because if we had 1 independent admin for every server the first round then that is minus 1 team. The reason for this is because out of the 12 or so ladles I've participated in I've been apart of at least 4 off-hand occurrences of illegitimate restarts. (i.e. First round easy win and opposing team claiming they weren't ready, or too much lag so let's all leave the server mid-match to another one)

[þsy]

Another thing, the dates that arrow clan proposed to play on, a few of our members said they weren't going to be able to show up. For armagetron, it seems like things must be scheduled at least a few weeks in advance to get full teams to show up, and even still, twisted rats manages to play with shorter and shorter teams. Why would we pass up the chance to play when we have a full team?

i dont agree with this entirely - the ladle is a clan/team tournament. we've had people in the past use this fact to their advantage, for example, switching players round half way through a ladle in a clan/team that has entered two squads.

now, i dont agree with that, but you can see that your point is almost the same extreme on the other side of the spectrum. twix is a combination of two clans (yes, x does seem to be depleting slowly) but lets have a look at your list of players you entered for the bowl:

CuRbSidE, Durka, Goodygumdrops, Hoax, SageLord, $ubzero, Corn, Dimbiman, DreadLord, JJBean, PlayerNuby, stax, WildCat, Terminator

i get the impression you might be able to fill in a 6-side squad if a couple of your players couldnt make it?

Wow, who told you that? We played 6v5 for 3 matches (since we decided best of 3 was better because of the time constraint). After the first match, however, we moved to CT's server since Z-Man's was lagging like crazy (all 5 U.S. TRX's had 189+ ping). Check out the screenshots:

Match 1:
Image

Match 2:
Image

Match 3:
Image

as i said before, apologies for any factual errors i made. the final itself seems legitimate, so wd to twix i guess

ive also revised my opinion on criticising twix, yes you could have been nice and understanding and re-arranged the final, but its not in the rules and as z-man said, if its up to anyone, it should be the admin who decides

as psyko said, what this competition really needs is independant admins who make decisive decisions. instead of talking between the two teams for 5 mins discussing whether we could reschedule, the admin should have said either YES, we postpone, or NO we do it now

i do feel that the point still stands, however, regardless of whose team it is. as sinewav said, i think hoop has got it spot on, and chages should be made in the tournament's rules

and though our community isnt massive compared to many other games, im pretty sure each team/clan has enough players affiliated with them to produce 6 for a game the following week!

[pike]

problem 3: summer time
anyone realized that?
with standard time (winter/fall) 18 gmt = 18 in UK
with summer time (summer/spring) 18 gmt = 19 in UK

Yes, and:
18:00 gmt = 20:00 euro time (most of europe)
21:00 gmt = 23:00
How many of us can START final (best of 5) at 23:00 on sunday?

I think voting thread would be best here, because with every new team the problem will grow.

[ed]

problem 3: summer time
anyone realized that?
with standard time (winter/fall) 18 gmt = 18 in UK
with summer time (summer/spring) 18 gmt = 19 in UK
but school/work times don't change, so basically during spring/summer we start tourneys one hour later than during winter/fall
solution: begin tourneys at X GMT hour during winter, begin tourneys at X-1 GMT hour during summer

Yeah, this why I only play these tournaments during summer months, your solution excludes me completely. You want to read my kids their bedtime stories so I can play in the bowl? No, I didn't think so.

But hey, you'll never please everyone with the time schedule.
I think this is definately one that should go to a vote.
I seem to remember there was one some time ago, but the people voting would have drastically changed since then so maybe it's due another one.

[þsy]

you could always get your kids to watch you play tron instead of the bedtime story? it would give them a bit of variation haha

alternatively, you could have a few more kids and start team called "eddie's family". 6 computers, one for eddie, one for the lady, 4 kids - sounds like a perfect set up to me! the younger they start, the better they'll become too haha

[hoop]

problem 4: solve problems during matches
let's take this bowl final as example:
I was arrows' captain in that match, so at some point I tried to solve the problem asking Durka (trx captain) what was his opinion, in the hope we could have a captain-to-captain discussion... but everyone was saying his opinion making the chat too confused
only z-man last sentence solved the matter because everyone listened to him
solution: when there's something to discuss about everyone shut up!
both teams have -say- 2 minutes to discuss/vote using /team
then when the time is over only captains and the admin (if there's one) can sort it chatting in public...
sounds good?

[2020]

hoop was there first with his solutions
BUT
the trick with anything we come up with in a self-disciplined and self-organised system
is implementation

in a disciplined system
there are judges and lawyers and police to ENFORCE decisions made
that is
position dictates result
WHEREAS
in a non-stratified system
tribal for example or within a classroom of kids or a community in a distributed network
the more powerful mechanism is trust and respect and wisdom

what nearly always happens at a point of discussion like this
is a call to arms
where some people demand that a fool-proof system is generated to ENFORCE various rules
SO
the challenge we face as a community with our self-organising intention
is to learn the skills necessary individually to be able to implement hoop's solutions

i for one feel capable of turning up on time
and trusting the captain/organiser to liaise accurately with other captains/organisers to ensure i am playing where i should be playing
SIMPLE
i trust my teammates
and in in the extended community of arma
WE ARE ALL TEAMMATES

[compguygene]

I would just like to be Captain Obvious for just a moment. This was the First Tronic Bowl. In terms of how many years the Tronic Progression will run, we are still at the bare beginnings. "Beginnings are tenuous times". This was the first time that we used auth to empower Team Captains. I think that it is safe to assume that we not only have had problems, but that we will have more problems that will need to be addressed. However, if we are ever to scale up to the dream of the Cup, we need to keep it "self managed", PERIOD! There are other ways of "enforcing" policies and procedures than requiring a "Tourney Admin".

[~*PsYkO*~]

Fun Fact! ~*Sasha*~ Lives in Russia which currently is GMT +4 which is EST +9? I could be wrong but something like that.... That means he played for SP from 11PM-1AM his time. Lol.