Fortress & Sumo United (FSU)

[delinquent]

I'll maybe add a sample page to the wiki, that way we can get on the road to working out a tangible product.

[Word]

The FSU should also cut down on the ridiculous drama threads here, were outraged parties scream "something should be done!" -- but nothing ever gets done and we reach 10 or more pages before the same crap happens a few months later.

Wait, I'm not just screaming "something should be done!", but that the FSU is flawed from the start if it does nothing to reconcile one party with another when it consists of these parties. I guess I want the FSU being more comparable to the blue helmets, rather than some corrupt sports association, the rules should be mandatory. "Try creating the FSU, but then make sure everyone sticks to it and be prepared if someone doesn't". And as long as it isn't clear who is behind TG, I just think the FSU will have a credibility problem. Of course an FSU team doesn't care about the ridiculous drama when it is the causer. It's like granting yourself amnesty without having to apologize to those you've harmed. What I'm asking for is accounting for the past first, not more drama.

[sinewav]

What I'm asking for is accounting for the past first, not more drama.

I don't know what your fixation is on Tron Gossip, but it needs to stop. Try looking at the FSU as a "clean slate." Once the framework is determined, anyone can join as long as they follow the code of conduct. If bad people join and continue to be bad, guess what? They are kicked out. I don't know about Germany, but in the US you can't be retroactively tried for a crime that is the result of a new law. For example, if I pinch your bottom today and tomorrow a law is made to making bottom-pinching illegal, I can't be punished.

Don't like some of the members of the FSU because of past grievances? Join the FSU and try to get them kicked out. Don't like the FSU? Don't join, don't play FSU sponsored events.

[Soul]

Wait, I'm not just screaming "something should be done!", but that the FSU is flawed from the start if it does nothing to reconcile one party with another when it consists of these parties. I guess I want the FSU being more comparable to the blue helmets, rather than some corrupt sports association, the rules should be mandatory. "Try creating the FSU, but then make sure everyone sticks to it and be prepared if someone doesn't". And as long as it isn't clear who is behind TG, I just think the FSU will have a credibility problem. Of course an FSU team doesn't care about the ridiculous drama when it is the causer. It's like granting yourself amnesty without having to apologize to those you've harmed. What I'm asking for is accounting for the past first, not more drama.

Basically took the words out of my mouth. Many uNk'ers know that Liz and Pyrrhic are the culprits as they have told me several times. It seems silly that the clan that is starting this isn't even dealing with their own internal problems but instead seeking to form some committee to protect themselves and/or attack others.

[Pr3]

Basically took the words out of my mouth. Many uNk'ers know that Liz and Pyrrhic are the culprits as they have told me several times. It seems silly that the clan that is starting this isn't even dealing with their own internal problems but instead seeking to form some committee to protect themselves and/or attack others.

Internal problem? This is an external problem. The problem is you. I have told you repeatedly that uNk will handle Liz and Pyrrhic if you can provide proof other than hearsay. Screenshots... anyone can make screenshots. "Trust me", Why should I believe you over Liz? You have done nothing but meddle in uNk's affairs ever since Liz applied. You lied to me when we first talked. You said you didn't try to recruit mr, but then later apologized after you got caught. You sir, are the hypocrite. No one is more repulsed by some of the post on TG than I am. However, It's Innocent before proven guilty here in uNk. Liz and Pyrrhic have done nothing but been respectful and conflict free in uNk. We choose to believe the best in them. Maybe you should look in the mirror before you call the kettle black.

[sinewav]

I'm going to try and make this clear to all you drama whores, and in this case, it's Word and Soul I'm talking to. The FSU is independent of Tron Gossip. It was proposed before Tron Gossip and even before Liz and Py joined uNk. And I'm not convinced they are behind it because 1) it's not in Py's personality, and 2) Liz is too lazy to create a tumblr. But that's just my opinion and I honestly don't care who made a junk website I looked at for 30 seconds before closing the tab. Team Unknown is not trying to form a committee to protect themselves. (Protect them from what I have no idea.) If the FSU were created tomorrow and Team Unknown was a part of it, they would be at it's mercy and might actually have to make changes to their team! There would be no avoiding it because the FSU would be voluntary and community-driven. In fact, all your arguments about Tron Gossip make the FSU a more attractive idea because shit could get done.

This is a community-wide topic that addresses long-standing issues and all of us are involved. You think the FSU would have a credibility problem? That's great! DON'T JOIN IT. We would all benefit from solutions rather than hearing "OMG TG & FSU is conspiracy!!!!11!!" Don't like the ideas for FSU? Come up with something better or STFU.

[woof]

To those who are saying TG is independent of FSU, this isn't the case. If somebody is proposing this grand idea that would give people the ability to hold power and punish people for their actions, yet doesn't take proper action when people in their clan are the culprits, how can we expect FSU not to be biased and pardon others when its beneficial to them?

[sinewav]

...how can we expect FSU not to be biased and pardon others when its beneficial to them?

Because the FSU would supersede individuals and teams. Example: If the FSU had 8 teams, and a couple people in one of the teams were being jerky-faces, the FSU community would pressure the team to discipline or expel the troublemakers or risk expulsion of the whole team. That's quite an incentive. And the larger the FSU gets, the more pressure can be applied. Sure minor infractions might get overlooked, but when the shit hits the fan, damn, be ready for the heat.

I think a lot of you misunderstand what is really happening here. And I need to be clear that my vision of this hypothetical FSU is different than what uNk+SP proposed. The FSU, as I imagine, is not a US vs THEM situation. The greatest pressure would be on the FSU members to behave, not those outside the organization. If you are not in the FSU, you have nothing to worry about because none of their rules apply to you.

If you are worried that the FSU is going to take over and you'll be forced to behave like a civilized person, well shit, I don't know what to tell you. But keep in mind the only way the FSU could realistically work is if we use the principals that make Ladle work, community commitment and transparency. (Again, let me emphasize my ideas are different than uNk+SP. We are still in the discussion phase, got it?)

And another thing to consider is even a weak FSU can still have potential benefits for the community by providing a different level of group-ism, much the same way conferences and divisions in professional sports work. Think about baseball and American football (AL, NL, AFC, NFC, etc...). Can you imagine a tournament structure where the FSU gets one side of the bracket and some other league gets the other? I know, crazy, right? Haha. But this is what I'm talking about, creative potential as a side effect. I would think all you dedicated clan-loving people would be all over more group-ism.

[Monkey]

Sinewav criticised what Ratchet said about human behaviour and said that slavery has been abolished. The truth of the matter is that most items we own are made in China or India by people that have such a poor quality of life, they may as well be slaves. The difference is merely technical and it's just politcal bullshit. So is the plan for the FSU to be a democracy? Democracies tend to fail miserably...just look at the state of the world and all of its democratic governments and sporting organisations; Sepp Blatter, the president of FIFA (the international governing body of football/soccer), is an absolute moron. If something like this were to work, it would have to be a meritocracy. However, meritocracies are generally hard to create and maintain, for two reasons: 1) Bad people. 2) Stupid people.

Our community is small and, for now, I would be more in favour of having a subforum of the Arma forums dedicated to outing people for their bad behavior, somewhere that issues could be discussed and proof could be presented. There would be no governing body to punish people, everyone just remembers what has happened and treats people in the game accordingly.

[sinewav]

Jesus Christ, Monkey. First, my slavery example is an illustration that human behavior changes and culture changes. Second, of course there is still slavery in some parts of the world and capitalism itself is wage slavery, but in capitalistic societies the slaves still have rights. My god...

There would be no governing body to punish people, everyone just remembers what has happened and treats people in the game accordingly.

We already have this. We want something different. That's the point of this thread.

Also, sorry about how bad FIFA is. I've heard about the corruption. Surprisingly, we don't have anything close to that level of wrongdoing in US sports leagues. There are working systems, no need to dismiss the idea out of hand.

[Word]

You think the FSU would have a credibility problem? That's great! DON'T JOIN IT. We would all benefit from solutions rather than hearing "OMG TG & FSU is conspiracy!!!!11!!" Don't like the ideas for FSU? Come up with something better or STFU.

Because the FSU would supersede individuals and teams. Example: If the FSU had 8 teams, and a couple people in one of the teams were being jerky-faces, the FSU community would pressure the team to discipline or expel the troublemakers or risk expulsion of the whole team. That's quite an incentive. And the larger the FSU gets, the more pressure can be applied. Sure minor infractions might get overlooked, but when the shit hits the fan, damn, be ready for the heat.

That's not a convincing argument to me. Once some FSU team violates so far unwritten rules in a way which affects a non-FSU team, you can predict that the FSU will help itself rather than do what's right; especially if it's used by certain people as a hiding place (mind you, I don't think either that pyrrhic and Liz are involved in TG). Some teams are just too important, or system-relevant, to kick them whenever they accidentally let an idiot join. And it's still no solution for problems outside the FSU. I'm not opposed to the FSU, I just think it needs a neutral start. Think how often the UN assembly is used as a stage by some crazy dictators - it's still a necessary, invaluable platform to prevent wars. However, majority pressure isn't a garantor or indicator for morality and a particular kind of conspiracy could become very real thanks to such a structure - if, for example, a clan wants to prevail over some decision, one can see that they might trade players or even let another clan win a few ladle rounds. And once all this gets public, what are you going to do then? Kick both teams although almost every team by then has once tried something like this? Well, maybe you can come up with mechanisms against this, I'm just trying to point out possible problems you'll need to address first IMO. I'm not denying the risk of expulsion is an incentive to behave, but the possibility of controlling it in a way you can effectively cover up how far you went to reach your objectives is an incentive as well, but to misbehave.

[Vogue]

It's clear FSU needs a lot of work as there are many conflicting opinions about it. Word, you have a lot to say, what would you suggest? Punish first, then start the FSU? And only punishment for the people behind TG/Judders, or other previous incidents as well?

[delinquent]

If this is going to work, everybody has to start on a fresh sheet, otherwise the very concept is flawed.

[Word]

@Vogue: I suggest you first clear up who it was and who it wasn't. Again, I'm not simply demanding punishment. But I think it's important when you're laying the groundwork for something like the FSU, that its architects and loudest defenders aren't involved in such shit themselves, and well-aware of such an institution's flipside. Blame my unability to imagine a fresh start without that.

[epsy]

Player "stealing" has always been a problem. [...]

I see it more as someone changing employer. I still don't understand why it would be frowned upon.

As a player/community-member I feel strongly opposed to any kind of overreaching "institution", so much I actually make sure any structure I own does not punish someone for actions they have done elsewhere(e.g. pickup bans can only be made on grounds of something that happened in pickup). I will certainly not participate in such a scheme, and will instead mourn fortress as a dead gametype if it were to come into existence.

You are trying to nail a coffin instead of punching it. Why aren't we fighting against closed "public" servers? Or the "Please list all your aliases" attitude when encountering an unknown person? Those two things are hindrances to your favourite gametype. Who does clanhopping or whatever affect? (I don't think I have seen any other reason for this.) Competitive players. Has this repelled you from playing your favourite tournaments? No! Then why are you trying to create an "Official Armagetron Advanced Fortress and Sumo Clan and Tournament Authority"? This will only raise the barrier of entry into fortress and its tournaments *again*. And don't tell me anybody is welcome. By that you mean you'll be prompting them for their aliases.