Making money from Armagetron take 2 (or 3 or whatever now)

What do you want to see in Armagetron soon? Any new feature ideas? Let's ponder these ground breaking ideas...
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Lucifer
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Making money from Armagetron take 2 (or 3 or whatever now)

Post by Lucifer »

Ok, here we go again. And a probably temporary return to Lucifer's Really Long Posts. :)

First, something resembling a cautionary tale. I've mentioned off and on that I've done professional marketing. I've done a whole lot of jobs, quite frankly, and family members and friends have taken to placing bets on what job I'll do next. :) My sister might have won some money at one point, she bet on me being a marketing flunkie. But I still love her. :) Anyway, I did web marketing. A very close friend that went all the way back to high school and I started a company doing web marketing, and they're still going. But as happens with many people, once money appeared, it didn't take long in the grand scheme of things for our friendship to deteriorate. With each of my own successes, his desire to rule the company kicked in and caused him to do some nasty things, and I can't say I was completely nice to him. In the end, we parted ways and we don't speak to each other any more. This is my former partner that I've mentioned off and on. I'm still feeling very bitter about it. It doesn't help that the company was founded on marketing techniques that I pioneered (amongst ourselves, the industry itself had already discovered them) and that he explicitly opposed when I first started exploring.

So here we are talking about making money off the game and quite frankly I'm not in a hurry to repeat that particular experience. So let's take it slowly, keep ourselves calm and open, and stay focused on two very important things that come up, one of which came up in irc a little while ago:

1. Personally, I'm looking into the future and seeing growth. I'm seeing growth that is going to either cost us money, or increase our dependency on certain free services. I'm a pretty independent kind of person, therefore increasing dependency isn't an option as far as I'm concerned. So I want to start raising money now, when our costs aren't terribly high, and get folks into the habit of thinking that while the game is Free and downloadable for no money, there are costs associated. With that in mind, Tank, can we get a report on paypal donations? Also, any expenses you've got? Far as I know, you're the one taking the brunt of whatever we've got, and collecting whatever revenue we've got.

2. The issue comes up, and just came up, about Free as in Freedom. Do we lock up a special distribution in an attempt to make money off it and delay the free release? What do we do? To answer that, I direct each and every one of you to the thread where we declared the Evil Triumvirate. There you will find three oaths that include "keeping armagetron Free" in some sense or other. As far as I'm concerned, the option to lock up any source code in any form or release any special editions that have artwork that bars redistribution isn't even on the table. When we talk about raising money, we're not talking about closing any part of the project. If anything, we need to be extra meticulous in ensuring our own procedures and policies are completely transparent and that everybody can come along and give us their two cents ( #google 0.02 USd in NOK ). And most importantly, that the source is always available and nobody's rights are ever taken away, contributions are always welcome with the good ones always being accepted, and so forth.

I know these two things are pretty obvious to many of you, but every time we talk about this, both of those things come up, so I figured we'll throw it on the table now and make sure we're all on the same page.

Now we get to how to make money off the game. This is where my marketing flunkie persona kicks in, I apologize in advance for any corporate speak that might appear in this post.

You can't market anything without knowing your audience. I've been around here for nearly 2 years, and my presence has been continuous. A little thin at times, but no periods where I was completely absent. I think I feel pretty qualified to give the following breakdown. I've broken it down in terms of contributions to the project. That's the only breakdown I see that makes sense. Otherwise, all of our other traits transcend these boundaries. I.e. there are fathers and mothers and grandfathers (one, at least, that I know of), college kids, kids that aren't in college, etc, and they all cross these lines.

1. Players. These are the folks that always run the stable version, sometimes they run older versions because they lack faith in the new version. They will never run a beta version (unless a new game mode is invented and they need the beta to keep playing), They will upgrade slowly, and will occasionally need to be forced to upgrade when we manage to fail to catch certain vulnerabilities before the code is released :) . They don't contribute to the project in any material way, other than just playing the game and enriching the community with their presence. Some have money, some don't. These are also the casual players that play for a month, leave, maybe come back, maybe don't.

2. Players that play the latest version. These are the guys that jump on the betas when released, and I guarantee you they'll jump on the development series when it's started. They won't run cvs, probably can't build a program anyway, but they want to play the bleeding edge code. They usually give bug reports, make feature requests, and contribute to the project by being part of our informal extended group of testers.

3. Players that play from cvs (soon to be svn). This group has some overlap with the previous group: there are players that would play from cvs snapshot builds but otherwise can't build software, so they usually wind up in the previous group. Otherwise, these guys are both programmers and not, but they can build software and use SCM software. They contribute to the project in the form of testing, rigorous testing at times, and this is also the group from which we draw our development team. Every developer here, afaik, was in this group immediately before being brought into the team. This is also the group we're looking at to draw the QA team from, and hopefully we'll get some guys for the QA team from the previous group.

4. Players that don't fit neatly into one of those categories and don't contribute materially to the project. Cristi, 'nuff said. :)

5. Players that don't fit neatly into one of those categories and contribute the things to the project they can, usually artwork, maps, and so forth. This is one of the groups we're targeting with all the fancy cockpit and moviepack stuff. They will be our core group of third party extenders.

Now, when we go to collect money from people, what are we looking to do? As stated before, we're looking to cover costs, both present and future by raising money now. We're already raising money, that's what the paypal stuff is all about! But people are only going to give us money under one of two conditions:

A. They fit into the first group mentioned, players the run the stable version and only contribute to the project their glowing presence. Players that feel like they've contributed are far less likely to give us money than anybody else, and let's face it, that's most of the rest of the breakdown I just gave.

B. Folks that want to support the project monetarily, explicitly. This would be people who already contribute in other ways, or don't, but explicitly want to give us money.

For the most part, both of these groups want value for their money. They don't want just throw their money into a black hole from whence nothing ever returns, especially if we're making decisions they're not terribly thrilled about. Why would silly give us money that he knows is going to provide lasers, ramps, and jumping? He hates that stuff! You see what I'm saying? I'm not trying to single him out, just give an example of someone who wants to contribute monetarily and support the project but doesn't have any reason to see value from a donation. He is clearly in one of the 2 groups I just mentioned of people that are willing to give us money.

So what do we have to sell? We already have donations setup. We can do one of those "For xxx donation we give you yyy service". Personally, I don't like that stuff. But we can do it.

We also have software to sell. We've beat around the idea a bit of offering limited edition CDs of the game, special artwork being the value offered here, possibly a live CD to carry it on. There's real value in this! Obviously it appeals to the group 1 folks that don't contribute materially to the project. To really appeal to them, you guess it, the CD has to have the stable release on it. Why? Because they won't run a development release.

There are others who would pay for such a thing in the other groups, but you'll see their numbers drop quite dramatically going to group 2, then slower as you go up in number, and the limit of this function is 0.

We've talked about merchandise. Merchandise isn't attached to version, and might well appeal to people who aren't willing to buy the stable release wrapped on a CD because they're already running out of svn or are running the development release.

Now as you guys go and brainstorm some more, keep in mind these groups that I've outlined. Flesh them out, go and talk to people that are in them and find out what they want. This is called market research, and any efforts we make to build and sell a product will be much more likely to succeed the more market research we've done. These are people you all know and love (or hate, or not) and you may think you know them, but start thinking about them in these terms and ask some questions. You *will* be surprised at the answers you get, I guarantee that.
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Post by Luke-Jr »

Good summary, and seems to suggest the best primary method would be the services.

A simple way to do this would be to have a "Priority Support Forum" with a subscription cost, which we weigh higher than normal requests. An extended variant might be to distribute the funds (after costs are covered, of course) from the subscriptions based upon how much each developer (or QA? or arts?) contribute in said forum.

Another service possibility might be to have our bug/feature tracker support players donating bounties toward the completion of a feature. A variant of this might be to instead associate "feature donations" with user accounts and weigh votes from those users higher. For example, "X Joe User" buys $10 of features, and bugs/features he votes upon get the weight of that $10.
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Post by gnorty »

My opinion here (for what it is worth, I am going on gut feeling rather than any training, formal or otherwise) is that your best bet would be some form of live CD. If it were tailored, as I suspect it would, to screw maximal framerates out of hardwarewithout unneeded overhead associated with a normal install, then there really may be a market out there. Selling for $5 per pop, how many copies per week would you need to sell? Would inclusion on a magazine coverdisk be helpful? maybe a semi-crippled one that will only connect to a subset of servers?

It is a very simple game concept, with excellent gameplay that could be played by just putting in the drive and switching on. Quite a concept when you look at some of the other commercial offerings. I don't see any conflict in doing this - most linux distros have an optional set of CDs available for purchase, and there are equally plenty of companies and individuals selling downloaded versions.

The only drawback I see is in fact a strength of arma - the rapid release cycles. Buyers would be justifyably annoyed if they paid for the game and then got only a months play out of it before being shouldered out following a server-side software upgrade.
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Post by Tank Program »

Actual expenses so far have ammounted to like $35 for the domain name, and shortly that ammount again to renew the domain for another year.

That's all expenses entail. I cannot receive monetary compensation for the hosting due to how things work with my mom.

Moving on, donations so far ammount to roughly $200.
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Post by omega »

i think merchandise and premium moviepacks are the way to go.

Premium versions and stuff will make some users of the game annoyed. Tru $5 aint alot but there are an awful amount of young ppl account and there are oh so many free online games. Also ppl will feel cheated if suddenly they payed and 2 months later something newer and better comes out.

Mbc seem to make $35 a month just with a paypal donate. U shud set a realistic target in the side of the site and ask ppl to donate. PPl are more likely too if they are set a target. Also publishing server costs as to how much this game costs is useful and many ppl would donate if they realised just how much it costs and the game might stop if enuff aint given.
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Post by Luke-Jr »

omega wrote:i think merchandise and premium moviepacks are the way to go.
I think we're forgetting something important: authentication and CSS can potentially create a market for auth hosting (by auth servers) and custom cycle textures and/or models. We might be able to have a "people who support us with a [fixed?] percentage of their sales" page prominant on the website. For example, if ed gets into selling custom cycle models for $50 ea, he might give $10 of that to the team and be a sponsor of a sort.
omega wrote:Premium versions and stuff will make some users of the game annoyed. Tru $5 aint alot but there are an awful amount of young ppl account and there are oh so many free online games. Also ppl will feel cheated if suddenly they payed and 2 months later something newer and better comes out.
Well, the point with one idea was that they'd be paying for latest-and-greatest. But as Lucifer pointed out, the people who want latest-and-greatest are our most productive players (other than developers).
omega wrote:Also publishing server costs as to how much this game costs is useful and many ppl would donate if they realised just how much it costs and the game might stop if enuff aint given.
Of course, the game probably wouldn't stop-- the difference would likely just end up being paid by us developers, as it is now. Though of course the more inflow of money, the quicker the game can improve-- maybe some day (maybe) there might be enough to more or less have developers work paid part-time or something, which would certainly see many improvements faster.
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Post by Lucifer »

Personally, I don't mind backporting stuff from svn trunk to the stable version to put on a cd release. Simple stuff, of course, like maybe the font stuff (not the sound engine, it's not in good enough shape for that :) ). But keep in mind that to avoid the annoyance factor we should be offering whatever we produce for free as well.

!?

That's right. :) So we make a liveCD with a special moviepack or something. Fine, put the iso image for download on sourceforge. Put the special moviepack on the moviepack list. The value added for buying it is the special packaging (which wont' be the greatest with cafepress, but it is still quite nice) and the out-of-the-box creamy goodness. It's a reasonable exchange for the iso image that you have to provide your own CD and use a burner to burn it, but the one you buy would work out of the box, that's the value there. It doesn't seem like much, but it's something people in general would be willing to buy if only to support us. I don't really know if it's something people in this community would buy.

My personal take here is that we just keep working as we work, making stuff people want and we want to make, and when a marketable product materializes we wrap it up and ship it.

So we get back to how the conversation got started in the first place. In the other thread I resurrected the idea of a server cd, an iso image with a linux distribution just like any other only it comes with various servers preconfigured to support the game, collects some of the support scripts that have been written, and comes with a special package that lets the server operator (at his option) update to svn trunk. Also maybe a special package that lets him update to the latest stable release, whatever that may be. That's a lot of convenience for server operators, and it's undoubtably worth money. But I suggested it as an iso image we offer for free download, and I aim to build it that way (provided I get it built, building t2 distributions can take some time).

sorry for the repetitiveness just to get to this general stuff again. :) So what I've usually recommended in the past at various times is that when you have an idea of something that may be marketable, you describe the idea and then make a value chart. It's essentially a chart where you list benefits to the package. In our case we'll need to make it a fairly complete matrix with columns that include what's available for free already. And we need to keep in mind that we're not locking up any code or artwork or anything! Whatever we build for sale has to be available for free.

This guy's got some good stuff written on the subject, too:
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/income-guide/
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Re: Making money from Armagetron take 2 (or 3 or whatever no

Post by Phytotron »

Lucifer wrote:Why would silly give us money that he knows is going to provide lasers, ramps, and jumping? He hates that stuff!
This is true. Heck, I would pay youse not to go in that direction.

(Rhetorical statement, obviously. I realise the game is on an irreversible course [downward, in my opinion], already has implemented a handful of things I dislike, and frankly, I've come to the conclusion that it's inherently flawed. Of course, I'll still play—for now.)
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Re: Making money from Armagetron take 2 (or 3 or whatever no

Post by Luke-Jr »

Phytotron wrote:
Lucifer wrote:Why would silly give us money that he knows is going to provide lasers, ramps, and jumping? He hates that stuff!
This is true. Heck, I would pay youse not to go in that direction.
Give us an alternative direction, and we'll probably consider it
Offer to code for your alternative direction, and we'll probably at least give you a fork to try it out it
;)
Phytotron wrote:(Rhetorical statement, obviously. I realise the game is on an irreversible course [downward, in my opinion], already has implemented a handful of things I dislike, and frankly, I've come to the conclusion that it's inherently flawed. Of course, I'll still play—for now.)
What's wrong with configurable maps and axes? :/
There will always be 'classic' servers.
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Post by Lucifer »

So, throwing onto the pile from the other thread, three things. I'll collect them all here, one of you other guys can do the benefit analysis. :)

Products (for free with physical paid versions):

1. Special Edition LiveCD (with installer packages for all supported platforms that contain the special edition artwork, presumably)

2. Server Distribution - Complete OS

Did I miss one? Or is this it?

Services:

Services will require 1 or more people to administer them. I'd be willing to administer 1 or more services, but I'd have to take money for my time. Assume others are similar. So paying someone to administer the service has to be considered a cost of the service. Also, one or more servers may be required, we should assume costs of servers too. (Services are expensive to setup, but cheap to maintain)

1. Tournament - minimum players. This model requires a minimum number of players to sign up, provides a guaranteed minimum purse to the winner.

2. Tournament - no minimum players. The only difference is that there's no guaranteed minimum purse.

In both tournaments, players pay an entry fee. The project pockets a percentage, the rest (hopefully lion's share) goes to the winner(s) as prize money.

3. League play. Just like little league. :) Run maybe three seasons a year, maybe just two. Teams pay a fee as a group to join the league. Split it into continental divisions, more than likely. Top teams from the divisions win a trophy. Each division nominates an all-star team to compete in out of season play. The winner of that competition gets a trophy, all all-star players get trophies to mark them as all-stars. All that good stuff. :) High entry fee (trophies are expensive, so is shipping). Extra entry fee for all-stars. Again, project pockets a percentage. (Considering how SPOON teams keep organizing games with each other, I suspect this would go over pretty well)

4. vServer hosting (from z-man's test). We'd need a server to do this, obviously.

5. Game server hosting without complete server. For this we don't offer the people a complete server, only a game server.

Other stuff:

1. Website Advertising. Actually, we can't do this, afaik, as long as tank's mom is hosting some of our websites for us. Fact is, we need tank to be able to take over any website we have if needed (the wiki showed this, anybody notice tank's got it now?), so we can't establish a website as a revenue source until we're off in our own place where it's no longer an issue. Tank, please correct me if I'm wrong. :) This is actually somewhat in collision with potential needs because there is enough traffic around here to warrant serious consideration of advertising.

That's all I've got for other stuff.
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Post by philippeqc »

I was wondering about the server's livecd. For me the biggest handicap for hosting a game has always been the investment required for the configuration of a server. Seeing that it would run from an os from the CD, that cost would even increase as I couldn't save the settings.

When my line of though changed was when I realised that the situation where I'd like to have a live-cd server are also the situation where I'd like to be able to say "O, lets play on a server like Tiger's team, or Fortress, or MBC, or Armagoshdarn ... "

The situations where a live cd can be very interesting include when access to the Internet is not possible or not desired. But that doesnt mean that the players are not interested in the servers that are publicly available.

So I guess the CD should hold enough information to be able to nearly ad-hoc emulate know and lesser know servers, probably in the form of ressources (map at the moment, more later) and configuration history.

It is at this point that a server live-cd becomes VERY interesting for me, because I can both host games easily, but I also have a bank of proven servers set up that I can activate at the flip of a finger. That can be worth $ for me.

While it might not be of interest for everybody, I feel there is lots of added value if it offers this capacity.

-ph

Edit: I just realised this is a form of "free engine, payable levels/map". But its a form we can do NOW.
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Post by 2020 »

Lucifer wrote:Services:

1. Tournament - minimum players.
2. Tournament - no minimum players.
3. League play. Just like little league.
sounds good...
could they be set up simultaneously?
eg the little league for regulars
and the ocassional one-offs?

the game provides people with a shit-hot experience;
i remember reading this phd-thesis about economies
and how we have moved from commodities
to goods
to services
and that we are now entering an experience-led economy;
the mechanisms of the market
the behaviour of marketeers etc
are different and evolve new ways to alter the flow of money...
hold the line
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Re: Making money from Armagetron take 2 (or 3 or whatever no

Post by Phytotron »

Luke-Jr wrote:Give us an alternative direction, and we'll probably consider it
Baloney. I could provide you with a whole list of things that I would like to see (or not see) which I can guarantee none of you would give the slightest bit of consideration. But I don't think taking that tangent in this thread would be appreciated by the others.
Luke-Jr wrote:What's wrong with configurable maps and axes? :/
Case in point.
Luke-Jr wrote:Offer to code for your alternative direction, and we'll probably at least give you a fork to try it out it ;)
Which just goes further to show you weren't sincere in the first place, since you know I don't code. (Begs a question about whether there's in this statement an implicit view that only programmers, and not players, should have any input into the direction of the game, but we shouldn't create that tangent here either.)
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Re: Making money from Armagetron take 2 (or 3 or whatever no

Post by Z-Man »

Phytotron wrote:I could provide you with a whole list of things that I would like to see (or not see) which I can guarantee none of you would give the slightest bit of consideration. But I don't think taking that tangent in this thread would be appreciated by the others.
Then do it in a new thread. I wonder what gives you the impression we would ignore everything you could offer. If it's new stuff to implement as options, you only have to convince one of us that it's worth his time; nobody will stop him doing it. We're still anarchic in that respect.
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Re: Making money from Armagetron take 2 (or 3 or whatever no

Post by Luke-Jr »

Phytotron wrote:
Luke-Jr wrote:Give us an alternative direction, and we'll probably consider it
Baloney. I could provide you with a whole list of things that I would like to see (or not see) which I can guarantee none of you would give the slightest bit of consideration. But I don't think taking that tangent in this thread would be appreciated by the others.
Like z-man said, start a new thread. The only reason to think none of us would consider them is if they're totally ridiculous ideas-- in which case, the only reason you'd suggest them is as a joke anyway. Therefore, one of us will at least consider them unless you're pulling a joke.
Phytotron wrote:
Luke-Jr wrote:What's wrong with configurable maps and axes? :/
Case in point.
You didn't say what's wrong.
Phytotron wrote:
Luke-Jr wrote:Offer to code for your alternative direction, and we'll probably at least give you a fork to try it out it ;)
Which just goes further to show you weren't sincere in the first place, since you know I don't code.
I haven't a clue whether you code or not.
Phytotron wrote:(Begs a question about whether there's in this statement an implicit view that only programmers, and not players, should have any input into the direction of the game, but we shouldn't create that tangent here either.)
You could always hire someone specifically to code what you want.
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