SPOON - Lessons Learned

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Lucifer
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SPOON - Lessons Learned

Post by Lucifer »

I'm forking this discussion from the other thread so the other thread can stay focused on finishing up the spoon. And I'm starting this discussion with my own thoughts, which definitely mirror other people's thoughts.

What lessons have we learned from the SPOON?

1. A central authority is needed. Granted, we didn't get terribly bogged down in negotiations and discussions and stuff, but a strong guiding hand is called for. A strong guiding hand doesn't have to exclude the basic self-organizing thing, but we did run into situations where one team wouldn't schedule a game. Also, how to handle new teams that weren't organized prior to the start? I think we handled it well for the most part, but I think a strong guiding hand could have done it at least as well, and also faster. We also had a great bunch of players, and a few people that took the lead when it was needed to push stuff through (can we give Lack an award for that? :) ). But there's no guarantees that this will always be true, or that it was or ever will be true that there will be enough leading types to do this stuff. There was also a lot of not-stepping-on-toes-trying-to-be-nice, which is good for what it is, but a guiding hand that's willing to step on toes to get things done would be very useful, especially as long as it tries to avoid stepping on toes and only does so as a last resort. :)

2. Timeframe. :) A month might have been too long. The first two weeks saw lots of action, and every team (with one exception) showed up and played a few games. I think this makes it wildly successful, whether or not it ultimately completes its actual goals. But attendance and participation during the first couple of weeks was both tremendous and heart-warming. The last two weeks dropped off a bit, and then inaction for awhile. So we might try a month again, but realistically expect all the energy to come out early and dissipate quickly. Clearly my month and a half was too long, from that point of view. There's also the added problem that April is a bad month for many college students, and let's face it, college students were a large proportion of the participants. Some high school students, and finals are usually late april/early may. School definitely pushed me out of the competition.

3. Tournament structure. For this particular tournament, and how quickly it finally came together, I think the structure we settled on was too complicated. No specific suggestions, just that we consider other tournament structures besides major american sports leagues. :)

Tournament structure and duration are linked, also. It's entirely possible that a 1-month tournament with a maximum game commitment of 3 games per player would have been more successful than our 10 game commitment (7 seed games + 3 playoff games). Just keeping in mind that these two variables are related, and changing both at once might be a recipe for disaster, or at least not knowing which change worked and which one didn't.

4. Scheduling. I found it astonishing that the players I play with in the middle of the North American night were suddenly only able to schedule games on the weekends, even though on any given day there were usually enough players banging around from several teams that games could have been played. We didn't allow for spontaneous match playing. On the one hand, this meant that players knew when the games were being played and would never be faced with "I didn't know because you guys just did it and I wasn't around, I wish I'd been there". On the other hand, more games probably could have been played if we'd allowed for spontaneous match playing. I won't try to guess how many more. Also, we ran into pretty serious problems scheduling across continents. I'm definitely interested in breaking up future tournaments by continent, since most of us seem to play at local night, people on each continent can play each other for whatever title is available, then the winners of the titles would play each other for the Grand Title. The advantage this provides is that the load of scheduling cross-continent is only carried by a few people who are theoretically determined to win the Grand Title, so have more incentive to work at it. The disadvantage (potential) is that continents might have different sized leagues, so it might be harder to win in one league than in another. Of course, I wouldn't suggest formalizing it by continent. Rather, you'd have the midnight->6am UTC league, and then 6am->noon UTC league, and so forth, and players would sign up for the league they want to play in based on what time commitments they can offer. That gives you teams with similar time commitments for all players collected together where they can play each other. Also consider the possibility that the Grand Title is won by an all-star team instead of the league champions, where participants in each league nominate players from within the league to the all-star team to play for the Grand Title and may come from a variety of teams. (Which reminds me, my son's being put up for the all-star team in his tee-ball league again. Yay!)

5. Team organization. Teams were self-organized and it worked nicely, in all. I think we could improve on it a bit. A central authority can set hard numbers on players per team, and make decisions on what to do if there's an odd man out that wants to play, or whatever. I'd like to see the old draft round brought up, where team captains would pick from a pool of players, one at a time, and try to construct the best team they can while competing with other teams for the players. Not saying it would work, just that I'd like to see it. The same central authority can also set soft and hard deadlines, and make the undisputable call for teams that organize late, or not at all but are kinda drafted by the other players (Formerly Elite, anybody?). :) Anyway, I think we could reuse this team organization method pretty safely, but I can't help but think we could improve it. I'm just at a loss for what to do to improve it other than stretch it out a bit.

All in all, I think it's gone well. There was a lot more real participation after things got going than I expected, and definitely fewer forfeits. And it was a great bunch of players all the way around that allowed things like substitutions from available players to avoid forfeits. :) Lots of sportsmanship shown, good games to be played, all that stuff. The collective here and on the grid can give itself a pat on the back for a job well done, I think.
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Post by gnorty »

have you seen my suggestion for a league style rolling tournament? I think many of your points are addressed by it. Also, I am pretty sure there are problems with it which could be resolved with a bit of thought.

Overall tournaments are good fun for those that play, and maintain interest in the game. It can only be good if only we can settle on a format that works. Granted, the first spoon attempt has fallen a little flat, but it started well. I understand you are, like me, an engineer, so I guess you can imagine how different the world would look if every invention that didn't work from the first prototype were written off!
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Post by DrJoeTr0n »

After reading paragraph 4, I sat there and thought about it for a little bit. Making time for a scheduled match is much harder than playing this game at random. I could barely make any of the matches scheduled. Yet I also played daily at any random time. Only difference was how long I played for. Sometimes i could fit maybe 2 rounds inm some times 20 matches. it all varied.
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Post by 2020 »

gnorty wrote:I understand you are, like me, an engineer, so I guess you can imagine how different the world would look if every invention that didn't work from the first prototype were written off!
hehheheh
can we set up various alternatives on the wiki
gnorty's being one
and by a certain date
we decide which one to go with...?

this allows people to contribute to any idea they like
fine tune it...
and then we have something to actually make a decision about...
hold the line
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Post by joda.bot »

Option 3) (already presented ?)

Do it like all sport associations do it.
- get at least 8+ players (2x(3 attackers+1 goalie))
- agree on a regular schedule to play (once per week, wednesday 18:00 GMT)
- meet at that time and play (if there are enough players more will follow)
- public server like cvs spoon help => kick noobs, allow good players


Make a date which is ok for 8+ people and stick to it, if there is another group with enough players just make a second date for them (or another server ;)) and play regulary once per week at the same time.

After sometime enough players will attend because they got used to the schedule (or even make time to attend if the other challenge is interesting enough ;))
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2020
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Post by 2020 »

i like the idea joda
a regular slot
and i can envisage something like gari's idea too
with the winning team staying on
and a queue for the next team...

btw
i was looking at a chat luci and i had at the start of spoon
http://wiki.armagetronad.net/index.php/Talk:Tronic
and i thought luci's points were entirely valid
and from the points raised above remain entirely valid
whereas it certainly looks like my suggestions were just that
hopeful suggestions

if we make the event super exciting
and everyone puts it in their calendar
will we only get 20% and the rest turn up late
as luci reports has happened to him...?

the trick is making sure everyone turns up on time...
i suppose it all depends on that...

is that the main problem?
hold the line
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Post by Lackadaisical »

2020 wrote:if we make the event super exciting
and everyone puts it in their calendar
will we only get 20% and the rest turn up late
as luci reports has happened to him...?

the trick is making sure everyone turns up on time...
i suppose it all depends on that...

is that the main problem?
You know, i don't what was so different about team ss, but all i can say is that i can't remember any game with people who came up (alot?) too late on our part (or didn't show up when they said they would), the only problem i've had was when one of us got spamkicked or when zmans spoon server was kicking people without the tag. Did team ss just luckily end up with a bunch of dedicated players? I don't know, but i think it should be considered that not every team has only 20% show up like luci said.
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Post by Lucifer »

Heh. THe context there is that I ws talking about previous tournaments. There was very good attendance for the SPOON on most teams. Even the lobsters managed to show up for a few games, come on.

So, why? If we can figure out why people showed up for the SPOON when people normally have trouble showing up for a tournament they sign up for, we can have better tournaments, right?
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Post by gnorty »

IMO the reason was 2020's input. He is modest about his contribution, but I think the basic interest is there, and he put enough energy in to maintain the natural momentum, when possibly at other times it just fizzled out.
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Post by 2020 »

thanks
gnorty
but i really can't take the credit...
i pushed hard for self-organising originally
that's all
the rest was zman's indirect support
and luci putting his weight behind it


if we think the turnout is high enough
i think we should...
you know...
try it in one day...
the trick is...
how...?
and luci mentioned something abour irc
as a chatlocation for captains to organise matches...
hold the line
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