entertaining the noobs....

[2020]

i guess when the developers finish with the next version
and present it to the world
someone has spent sometime thinking about how noobs find their way around?

i mean
when i first got the game a few months ago
it was a simple matter of plug in and play
got me straight into games immediately
however
when i tried to find stuff out
visiting this place
the wiki here
other servers
clan pages
it was all very confusing

it would be nice to have a very simple entrance
to explain the basics and such

it seems to me
that this site emphasises the back end
developers and programmers and experienced players
rather than the front-end
with noobs and very basic play and etiquette

does this resonate with any of you back-end master programmers?

[Tank Program]

So you're saying we're a bit advanced?

[joda.bot]

@2020: suggest / make improvements ... guess the wiki does benefit from someone looking at it from the newbie perspective and making it easier...

[philippeqc]

2020, you are right. The forum has a strong insistance on the development of the game, and it lacks any introducory part.

Just this morning I was thinking that a much much simpler version of the map making document should be writen. I mean now it goes into all and every gory little details and lies it all out, but a guide that would just present the basic stuff, and maybe mention the existence of everything else would surely be more suited to most map designer. For example it could quickly introduce the axes, say that it allow to specify any number but defaults to 4, say that if you want to allow motion in a direction and its opposite it needs to be an even number. After that it could say something like "It is also possible to hand define each direction individually. This gives the map designer full control of where each axis points, rather than to have all of them distributed evenly. I can be used for example to have them running parallel to the sides of a parallellogram, or even to set the axis in very irregular distribution or order, like the branch of a star that would have been drawn by a 4 year old." Now the people reading this for whom the idea of breaking away from the traditional 4 axis dont have to read through countless chapters of yet-to-be-used (*) features for fear of missing one important detail. Other might read it, think its cool and be happy it was a short chapter, and a few might put it in the back of their brain and maybe a day have it mature up. But all of this would make for a much easier and accessible document.

Your analysis is good, and you point to items that are a serious lack, but someone I was expecting you to find one more item, and you didnt.

To do this properly, I mean to really target new players, not pre-intermediate ones, it would need to be done or directed by someone who still remember where his or hers newbie shoes are. Anyone currently actively involved in the development has probably at best a vague idea of the color of his or hers newbies shoes. But as to find them back and wear them again is quite impossible.

So it seems we are left with whom could take this job. I think it would need someone with a good drive, as these kind of thing always take more time than expected. And it mattered to you enough to bring the topic to our attention.

Now will you stop at these words? ;)

-ph

*) Except for Your-mom, my personal hero, whom have posted screenshot of a map where he had 5 totally weird out axis. http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopi ... 2728#32728

[Lucifer]

The wiki can use a lot of noob-type stuff. As far as I can remember (it's been a little while since I browsed it), all it's got for noobs is the "Noob server admin guide", and maybe some of the tactics pages. But like any community resource, it can only ever be what the community makes it to be.

Other than that, I'm not sure these forums can be a solution to the problem. We're friendly to new players here, so it's not like we're scaring them away by being assholes or anything. (There may be a few isolated cases of that, though) If we're scaring away any new players on these forums, it's probably that there's so much development talk going on here.

What I would personally prefer is if we moved the development talk to a mailing list instead, but the forums are already entrenched, so such a move would probably isolate development from players again, which I wouldn't like. So, failing that, maybe just a way to have the development category by default not be included in "Search all new posts since last visit". Then we can encourage people who are interested in development to take part, and go ahead and select that box in their profile, and the rest can just browse it when they're interested, and otherwise leave it alone.

[philippeqc]

I like the "dont show development post on view post since last visit". Might help people not get scared away.

-ph

[2020]

@tank: yes, you are advanced
@joda: i agree, it would benefit from a newbie perspective...
@phil: i happen to have my newbie shoes on right now
@luci: yup, the community makes the wiki

to orchestrate the changes in the wiki
sounds like a long-term project
and changing things could be a little tricky since luci seems to be in charge
and...
well...
lucifer does seem to exhibit the qualities you'd expect from a perfectionist
with a corresponding tendency for control-freakery
!
perfect if you want to nail down computer code
but perhaps not so perfect when dealing with the incompitencies of us mere mortals
-
me being one of them

so
if i have got your implied messages right...
i don't mind taking some responsibility of the wiki
in some way
to make it more newbie friendly

however
if i was allowed to suggest something of my own...?

i think the armagetroncompetitors.com site
might be a useful space to encourage newbie involvement
as well as a hub for organising tournaments and so on
if
and only if
there is no clan partisanship

i have talked to the guy who set it up
self destructo
of whom i think you already know
and he assures me that it is a neutral site

so
if i can alter things there slightly
it can be the players' site
and this place can be the developers' site
and so
everyone is happy!

[
i think i can hear a groan from one or two of you
]

the more advanced players
can then visit this site
play around with the wiki
interact with the development process
and...
well...
it could be a very useful partnership...
teamwork even....

...what do you think?

[Walking Tree]

I think that at least for support questions this forum should stay the de facto standard. it's just that in the end, the devs and advanced players who may not want to hang around that competitors site are usually the best at answering those questions.
Now that we have a wiki, it should be used for all wiki-worthy material on the game. I am sure (I hope ?) luci will let you write as much helpful information as you can in there. But there is actually no problem with having the wiki for more advanced info, and another (prominently linked and referred to here) site for noob-orientated documentation.
For this forum to look more noob-friendly, the dev forum should however be optional and right at the bottom of the index page.

[philippeqc]

I'd be agains advertising all new players to go to another forum. Most people tend to stick to a single community, so you'd be essentially condemning this one.

When I read you, I though you wanted to address more than just the forum aspect, and give good resources to new players. Like setting up material on www.armagetronad.net. The wiki is a wiki, ie: a big melting pot. You need to already know something of the game to jump in it (or at least this is how I would do, so would a proportion of the people).

I agree with Walking tree. For me it feel like a good newbie zone could be better build as a few web pages.

-ph

[Lucifer]

Indeed, it seems like we could each spend 5-10 minutes making one page for noobs on the wiki and refer new players to it. If it works, fine, if not, we can take it and stick it on the main website, or link prominently to it, or whatever.

We also need an FAQ page on the wiki.

[Phytotron]

Yeah, there's really only one main thing that I would point out—and this isn't a rub or criticism, just an observation. Most of the regular posters around here are "geeks" who are rather fluent in programming language, terms, jargon, etc. Often times I notice that there seems to be (at least in conversational effect) an assumption on the part of many of you that the rest of the world knows what you're talking about when you use this kind of language. You assume too much, my friend. There have been a number of times when after two or three attempts, I've simply given up on trying to get an answer on something because broken-down explanations simply aren't given. At best, I get vagueries that still include technical jargon with which I'm not familiar. I know this to be true of others as well.

(As an aside, and for comparison, there is a debate among science writers and advocates on this very subject. Some scientists look down upon popular science writing, arguing that it's too dumbed down. The other side—which would include people like Sagan, Dawkins, Shermer, and Pinker, for instance—argue that much of the scientific illiteracy and disinterest in this country comes from the fact that the general public just can't understand the technical jargon of scientists, and get turned off by their impression of there being a sort of "ivory tower" among scientists who refuse to write in understandable terms. This is why Carl Sagan was so great—he managed to get scientific information across in a manner that everyone could understand, and in fact enjoy. Once initiated, those people could then move on to the more advanced.)

So, my suggestion would be that in certain places—whether it's in entertaining questions or on the wiki, which is still rather undeveloped—everything needs to be broken down more clearly. Don't only state that something is, using technical language, but go further to explain what things are in layman's terms. A FAQ would definitely be of use, as would a glossary.

You know what I mean? I'd give some examples for illustration, but I just got up awhile ago and my brain is still coming up to speed, heh.

[Walking Tree]

The language problem silly describes probably exists. getting rid of it should be part of the "hide development from the user a bit" project...

Can anyone think of a good place for a note like

We don't use difficult words on purpose. We want you to understand what we are saying. If you don't, shout.

In the support forum ?

[2020]

have you guys noticed something...?

yup
the only guys talking here are...
yup
the regulars
with a few glaring omissions like z-man

@phil:

I'd be agains advertising all new players to go to another forum. Most people tend to stick to a single community, so you'd be essentially condemning this one.

please reconsider this
since as everyone here agrees
this would remain primarily the developers site
as it is already
and for advanced players who wish to interact with the big boys

@silly

Don't only state that something is, using technical language, but go further to explain what things are in layman's terms. A FAQ would definitely be of use, as would a glossary.

sounds good
but please reconsider
i don't actually have a huge number of questions
i would merely like to contribute
to construct
a more socially cohesive community

that is
have more fun
and that means
noobs
getting together on the grid
trying things out
discussing ideas and...
well...
having more fun


@tree:i would rather not shout

the game is brilliant
it speaks for itself

the challenge now
is to make the game live socially
and from what i can see in the involvement on this forum
and the wiki
the format does not invite contributions

designing a game
is one thing
how it catches and works in society
another

please don't apply the same techniques for both


you are all cool
i have said enough
it is not my place
forgive me if i have overstepped the mark

[Tank Program]

yup
the only guys talking here are...
yup
the regulars
with a few glaring omissions like z-man

Isn't that the definition of regulars?

@phil:

I'd be agains advertising all new players to go to another forum. Most people tend to stick to a single community, so you'd be essentially condemning this one.

please reconsider this
since as everyone here agrees
this would remain primarily the developers site
as it is already
and for advanced players who wish to interact with the big boys

You know that before this site, there wasn't any community at all, right? No development had been done in over a year and a half? There is absolutely no way I would let people be pointed to another forum in lieu of this one. Who do you think would populate a second one anyway? The same people as here, and we're back to where we started. Development being all over the place is a feature of open source software. It's just how it is. There are plenty of forums regulars that really know nothing about development or programming. Maybe putting more noob friendly stuff on the main site is a good idea, but the forums are pretty much the way they are no matter what.

[Walking Tree]

it's ok to hide development to some extent, but it's not OK to move armagetron chit-chat to another forum. what would happen with our brilliant "Really General" section ?!