"gay" - split from "for tesafilm"

goferman · Post by **goferman** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:33 am

Now we should take a look at Revan's side of the argument. It is totally valid for several reasons.
1. The bible was written in the past when education was not as good and supersticious and things had to be overly simplified for people to understand the teachings of it. It is very possible that the things in the bible could have happened and the explanations were simplified or interpreted differently.
2. Miracles are certainly possible and the church is not a bad organization. The message that it gives (except for the preaching for no protected fornication in Africa) is a fine message.

3. How else can you logically explain the universe and us besides through a higher being like a god. (Don't tell me the big bang theory it may make sense, but what made even that happen)

Post by **Lucifer** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:40 am

goferman wrote: 3. How else can you logically explain the universe and us besides through a higher being like a god. (Don't tell me the big bang theory it may make sense, but what made even that happen)

Why does there have to be an entity acting on the universe? More importantly, why do we need to leap to conclusions when we know we don't have enough evidence one way or another?

I don't want proof of God's existence, I want a falsifiable hypothesis. That's all I'm asking for. The thing is, religion can't give it, because of the faith doctrine.

goferman · Post by **goferman** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:53 am

No christian can give you one and in a way this is where many wise philosophers have denounced religion. It isn't proveable and it doesn't follow reality's rules. If I really stated what I believed it would be seperating the catholic church up again and i would be considered a cultist. That is why i prefer to consider myself a deist.

(yes i like the word as much as the concept

)

Revan · Post by **Revan** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:59 am

Fair enough Gopher Man.

Post by **Lucifer** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:11 am

The catch is that I can dream up numerous hypotheses to explain the events depicted in the Bible, and the more we learn about our universe, the more these other hypotheses seem more likely, and none of them remove any of the validity of the Bible.

I guess the part that really bothers me is the idea that Bible requires God to exist to be useful, and it doesn't. None of the religious works I've read (and there's a fair amount of material that I've read) require any higher non-human terrestrial power to be useful.

(Not that I'm trying to put any emphasis on the Bible, I don't like overemphasizing it either, but I think it's a mistake to turn away from God and then ignore the Bible. Think it through critically and dismiss most/all of it, fine. But don't just ignore it. It has too much historical significance at this point)

goferman · Post by **goferman** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:14 am

yes i do realize my username is misspelled In tron i changed my name to the correct spelling when I stopped being a newb so I can't change it although i wish i could :sigh:

Fonkay · Post by **Fonkay** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:00 am

I wish we would have let this die when it had a few days off. I'm personally tired of telling people how stupid they sound, and how they need to do some damned research before they start using their keyboard. It doesn't help.
Please let this die. It's not about gay rights anymore, and no one will ever win this God battle.

Website · Post by **Z-Man** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:32 am

Fonkay: don't worry, I have a plan to bring this back on topic

goferman wrote:3. How else can you logically explain the universe and us besides through a higher being like a god. (Don't tell me the big bang theory it may make sense, but what made even that happen)

Invalid. Explaining the existence of A with the existence of B without having an explanation for the existence of B does not explain anything.

Revan wrote:You have faith in your religion even though it can't completely be proven.

Strange, it sounded differently when you were talking about Mr. Ed. Pretend for the rest of this that I am a believing Hindu. Can you (or Gofer or anyone else) tell me again why my religion is crap? Or point to something that is not perfect with it?

Revan · Post by **Revan** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:09 pm

Religion and a religion are very different. For one thing it a religion is a beleif or type of worship. Religion itself is generalized as beleifs in general and when people think of religion they think of church. When it isn't. It's something else, pretty much a horrible generalization of Christianity. Therefore I rest my case of religion is crap.

But your religion is a different subject. Kinda confusing.

Website · Post by **Z-Man** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:18 pm

Confusing indeed, I did not get a word of what you're trying to say. Are you saying that, in general, Religion is a good thing, but special religions are crap? How would you select which one are crap, and which one is the Truth? Please explain this previous statement, it seemed to be directed against Hinduism specially:

Revan wrote:Another thing, Hinduism is a load of it. I'm sick of it ...

Self_Destructo · Post by **Self_Destructo** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:21 pm

As far as the gay topic goes.... "Sinner people have sinner ways." I'll leave it at that.

Ocsi, I don't pretend to be nice, I am nice. It is really hard to rub me the wrong way.

Oh, and Revan is the only other Christian in SP AFAIK. And he quite young, so be easy on him.

And Revan... Please don't cuss... that make Christians look bad.

Don't take things personally. You've done ok other than that. Sorry Tank buddy.

I don't have time to debate or I would. But you guys really already know what I believe, (because it is in the Bible) and I know what you guys believe. So I'll leave it at that, because niether of us are going to change. Now, with that said, I'm off to work.

Website · Post by **Z-Man** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:33 pm

Self_Destructo wrote:As far as the gay topic goes.... "Sinner people have sinner ways." I'll leave it at that.

I agree. Let's kill them all as early as possible, so they accumulate less sin in their life. We're doing them a favor, right? Maybe they won't have to burn in Hell then.
Budhism missionary mode: The concept of Sin does not exist there, either. No God-given rules you have to follow. Now that's what I call a practical religion. Whoops, true Budhists dont missionate either. There is no need. Either you find the right way yourself, or you don't. I'll shut up about it

Self_Destructo · Post by **Self_Destructo** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:39 pm

z-man wrote:
Self_Destructo wrote:As far as the gay topic goes.... "Sinner people have sinner ways." I'll leave it at that.
I agree. Let's kill them all as early as possible, so they accumulate less sin in their life. We're doing them a favor, right? Maybe they won't have to burn in Hell then.

No true Christian would even think about killing them. What they would do though is pray for them and show them the error of thier way.

z-man wrote:Budhism missionary mode: The concept of Sin does not exist there, either. No God-given rules you have to follow. Now that's what I call a practical religion. Whoops, true Budhists dont missionate either. There is no need. Either you find the right way yourself, or you don't. I'll shut up about it

OK, then... but Christianity and Budhism are two totally different religions. They do not compare.

Post by **Lucifer** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:55 pm

Self_Destructo wrote: No true Christian would even think about killing them. What they would do though is pray for them and show them the error of thier way.

Indeed, but this whole split happened over whether or not there should be laws limiting the rights of homosexuals as citizens of a nation. We all already know how everyone around here feels about God, religion, homosexuality, and all that stuff.

But the question is, should the government be limiting the rights of people who are homosexual, and otherwise full citizens of a given nation? If so, why? What reasons does the government have? Keeping in mind that this diversity of religious views here is not only partially representative of diversity throughout the US, but throughout the western world. So the reasons the government applies must satisfy this diversity of views.

A deeper question that I think this gay marriage thing only hints at, how is a representative government supposed to make laws, and how are leaders to lead in a country with such diversity? What moral foundation is to be used in the making of laws? Can laws be made without a moral foundation? If so, what's the guiding principle? And lastly, how does it apply specifically to gay marriage?

goferman · Post by **goferman** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:48 pm

actually almost every religion in the world has the same final idea a final ending with peace and happiness for all (they better have tron up there) so it is quite reasonable to say that really it is stupid for us to be arguing over differences in religion when the concepts are the same (be nice to others and you will be rewarded in the end)