Gamescom 2015

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Z-Man
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Re: Gamescom 2015

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Monkey wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 3:15 am
Z-Man wrote:I'll probably have to get a MiSTer FPGA machine at some point
I've just taken a look at this and it's an interesting project. Have you tried any emulators instead though?
Sure! Many over the years. Well, many versions. UAE, and there was a competitor named Fellow, which always had better performance, but worse compatibility. That was back when CPU clocks where in the low 100s of MHz when that mattered, nowadays UAE runs practically everywhere. Super Nintendo emulators are also what I like to use. They are fine! I now even have a tiny mobile emulation device that runs all the emulators, the Miyoo Mini. These pictures don't convey how tiny the thing is. Of course, that means I now have to use glasses to play it :) And the rear buttons are hard to use. The plus version is a bit bigger.
There are however a couple of very hard to overcome obstacles for emulation: Latency, correct refresh rate and clarity of motion.

Refresh rate:
I grew up on PAL devices which have a 50 Hz refresh rate, most devices nowadays run on 60. Of course, doubling to 100 Hz is an option, but at 60, you can choose between running your games 20% too fast or accepting choppy animations and uneven latency when the simulated framerate and the output framerate don't match. Or you go for tearing.

Latency:
The Amiga mouse communicates its position to the computer over four signal lines where the pair for each direction go off-off, off-on, on-on and on-off cyclically as you move it; they're simply the direct signals from photosensors that pick up the movement of the little wheels in the mouse. That IMMEDIATELY updates register values the CPU can read out to get the current mouse position, which can be translated to the position of the mouse cursor, a hardware sprite, in theory also immediately right before the scanline is at the position to display it. You can get the latency down to way below one millisecond if you set your mind to it.
Likewise, joystick input is available to programs immediately. If you poll the joystick, you get where it is NOW.
These machines had direct immediate control over what they do with the electron beam as it painted the image onto the CRT.
Same with sound. Order the sound hardware to start playing a sample, and it will do so right now.

On modern machines, the input devices have a polling rate and latency in themselves. The emulation has to complete rendering an entire frame before it can send it off to the screen. The screens themselves often have some latency. Sound needs to be buffered ahead a bit.

You can compensate for all of that, somewhat, by letting your emulator simulate ahead; so you poll input, simulate two frames, render the output, then go back one frame and repeat. This leads to little inconsistencies whenever the input changes, but at low compensation, you typically don't notice it. Not in the image, at least. For sound, this method does not work. Sound will always lag or pop.

Clarity of Motion:
CRTs flash the image, top to bottom, only for a short few milliseconds and are dark in between. That's why they flicker and one reason why we replaced them :) But that also means that if an object moves across the screen and you follow it with your eyes, it will stay sharp; on a flat screen with continuous backlight, it will always blur. See https://www.testufo.com/ .

Gaming monitors nowadays allow you to strobe the backlight (or, in the case of OLEDs, simply strobe the lights) to get you better clarity of motion. However, they usually only allow that for higher refresh rates to avoid flickering. You can solve the problem by throwing more power at it: Get a monitor that supports strobing and some integer multiple of your retro device's refresh rate, then you combine the strobing with black frame insertion by the emulator. That can also get latency down consistently. The emulator needs to support it, though, and it does not seem like UAE does.

Let me stress: All of that is not a big deal. These are problems modern games on modern hardware all face; worse, they usually have rendering pipelines that add another one or two frames of latency. We have gotten used to it. It's just that in these very few aspects, old games on old machines used to be better, technically, and it is lost in emulation.

The MiSTer simply has the old hardware rebuilt in circuits. It can have the exact same performance characteristics. Of course, if you use an USB controller with it, you get latency from that. If you attach it via HDMI to a flat screen, you get latency and motion blur from that. But you can attach original input devices and output to real CRTs, and if I read the docs correctly, with sub-frame latency.
My brother and I have an Amiga 500 still from our childhood.... We will have to see if it's still working. I hope the capacitors, etc are OK. Many good times on this machine.
Sweet! Of course, nothing beats the real hardware. I have my Amiga 500 right here, it's mostly working. The expansion memory broke a while back, that is all, but no game needs it.
Don't worry too much about the caps, the A500 ones are apparently durable, the A1200 ones are the problem children. Oh, and the disks will start to fail to read around now, they were not built for eternity.
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Re: Gamescom 2015

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Z-Man wrote:There are however a couple of very hard to overcome obstacles for emulation: Latency, correct refresh rate and clarity of motion.
I didn't realise things were this complex. I don't remember having observed any issues with UAE but maybe I wasn't looking hard enough.
Z-Man wrote:CRTs...
I used to have a very high quality, aperture grill, IIyama CRT monitor which, even many years ago, was capable of high resolutions (albeit in a 4:3 ratio). I swear that the quality of the images was actually better than that of many modern, flat screen monitors.
Z-Man wrote:I have my Amiga 500 right here, it's mostly working...Don't worry too much about the caps, the A500 ones are apparently durable
Nice one and good to hear!
Z-Man wrote:Oh, and the disks will start to fail to read around now, they were not built for eternity.
This is another concern that I do have. They have been kept away from bad things like light, heat, moisture, etc but I still fear that some may have bad sectors, etc.

What were/are your favourite Amiga games?
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Re: Gamescom 2015

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Monkey wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:11 pm I don't remember having observed any issues with UAE but maybe I wasn't looking hard enough.
Then count yourself lucky and don't look harder :) Our brains are good at hiding latency from our conscious experience, they have to do that a lot every time you put on your shoes, your sense of touch on your feet has almost half a second of lag and you don't notice it one bit.
Monkey wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:11 pmI swear that the quality of the images was actually better than that of many modern, flat screen monitors.
When it comes to the colors and contrast, certainly. OLEDs seem to finally have cracked that.
Monkey wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:11 pm This is another concern that I do have. They have been kept away from bad things like light, heat, moisture, etc but I still fear that some may have bad sectors, etc.
That's certainly the best you can do. Sadly, no matter what you do, they demagnetize on their own after some time.
Monkey wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:11 pm What were/are your favourite Amiga games?
The ones I replay on the regular are Turrican and Turrican II; they're platformer/shooters and for their time, ridiculously easy to get through. You still die often, but always continue right were you were, and there are about 50 extra lives scattered around the levels. And a full playthrough lasts about two hours, a manageable chunk.

Also on the replay rotation is Fairy Take Adventure. It's not a great game, but was among our first. It has a tough start, giving you only a dagger to fight the randomly spawning monster hordes (you can talk to them! And get responses! It just does not help...), and it gets easier and easier as the game goes on and you gain power. It has a huge world, although the technical limitations of the time make it mostly empty and samey.

Fondly remembered are other shooters: Z-Out, R-Type, Hybris, Battle Squadron, Silkworm, Xenon 2. What's interesting about R-Type and Battle Squadron is that they have mixed framerates; most objects are updated at 25 FPS, but your ship and, for Battle Quadron, your own shots, are at full 50 FPS. They can do that because the faster moving objects can be hardware sprites.

Lemmings is certainly one of the absolute best games of that period. That one does not lose much in an emulator, and gains lots because you probably have a more reliable mouse nowadays :)

The Secret of Monkey Island: IMHO the best version of that game is the Amiga version. Best music, no question. And while the VGA version has more colors to work with, these were the very early days of VGA and the artists were not yet used to them, so they spent them all on smooth background transitions.

And lastly, It Came from the Desert. Giant ants, made giant by a radioactive meteor, threaten a small town. Your job as a geologist is to first find out wth is going on, then convince others wth is going on, get help from the locals, fight the ants and finally find and storm their nest. You have great freedom of action and your choices matter. Every day, there are different events on the different locations; if, for example, you don't go help defend the gas station against an attack, the clerk will be gone and can't give you the extra fuel for your flamethrower, which makes the final storming of the nest a bit more difficult. Today, you would classify it as a visual novel with action minigames. Someone should make a randomizer of it.
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Re: Gamescom 2015

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Z-Man wrote:OLEDs seem to finally have cracked that.
I will make sure the next monitor i get is an OLED then. My current monitor is an old IIyama flat screen, 1080p, max refresh 75hz. I've had it for years so at some point I will upgrade. I will find a good home for it though as it still works fine.

Amiga games: I've either played, or at least know of, almost all the games you mention:

Turrican and Turrican II - Know about them but haven't actually played them.
Fairy Take Adventure - Never even heard of it but looking on the web, it looks like Moria.
Z-Out, Hybris - Never heard of them.
R-Type, Battle Squadron, Silkworm, Xenon 2, Secret of monkey island, It came from the desert - Yep, played them all.

Some of my fav games:
Intact, Sensible world of soccer, Cannon fodder, Bloodwych (IMO the best 2 player split screen fantasy RPG), Hired guns (IMO the best 4 player split screen futuristic RPG), James pond 2 Robocod (IMO the best platformer), Apidya, Lords of chaos(IMO the best turn-based fantasy game), Supercars 2, SWIV (successor to Silkworm), Dogs of war, Double dragon, Street fighter 2, Dune 2, Settlers 2, Pinball {dreams,fantasies}, Worms, North and South...

I'm sure you've heard of the site "Lemon Amiga". I've just looked at their list of best and worst Amiga games. I've played most of the best ones and, thankfully, only 2 of the worst ones (Days of thunder, a truly terrible game and Street fighter, which was not great).

I also bought a SNES, later on in life but I don't have it any more. Super Mariokart and Street Fighter 2 were my 2 favs on that console.

All this talk of Amiga games has got me inspired, I will try to set up UAE on OpenBSD now! Wish me luck...
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Re: Gamescom 2015

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So ive been playing on FS-UAE, a cross-platform and modern version of UAE. It plays all games as good as perfectly. I used xrandr to change my refresh rate to 50hz but couldnt see a difference really so i will continue on 60hz.
I played Bloodwych, Robocod (James Pond 2) and Apidya. Great games. Also, there is a "net play" feature, where you can, supposedly, play multiplayer games over the net instead of at the same computer!! However, I have not got it to work as of yet ... maybe it's still a WIP, I'll have to find out.
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Re: Gamescom 2015

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Emerald Mine is the greatest of the Amiga games. Too bad is was so blatantly exploitative that the developer never saw a penny. I liked Firepower a lot, too. Never played it over the modem, though.

I usually go back to the Commodore 64 for retro games. MULE, Ultimas 2 and IV (occasionally III and V, but those two are ridiculously hard to play).

The game I'd keep going back to on the Amiga has been superceded by FreeCiv. Go ahead and guess which game that is. :)

There are two games that I wish I could find somewhere, though. There was one for the C64 called Balance of Power that was just two starships duking it out. It was fun because you had to make your turn, then your opponent made their turn, then you sat and watched it play out. The other one was called Empire, or something like that. It was just a hex wargamer, science fiction, of course. I don't really remember the name, either, but it was reasonably challenging, and the first time I ever saw fog of war implemented in a game.

Of course, my fondest memories on the Amiga were of DeluxePaint and SAS C, and BlitzBasic. You might notice that none of those are games. :)

Edit: Silent Service II on the Amiga was the best submarine game. I'd like to rewrite it as a bridge simulator type game.
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Re: Gamescom 2015

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Monkey wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 1:31 am
Z-Man wrote:OLEDs seem to finally have cracked that.
I will make sure the next monitor i get is an OLED then. My current monitor is an old IIyama flat screen, 1080p, max refresh 75hz. I've had it for years so at some point I will upgrade. I will find a good home for it though as it still works fine.
You might want to hold your horses, though, because OLEDs come with three main disadvantages currently:
1. Price
2. They age more rapidly than LCDs, and faster if they have to shine brightly, and lose power. Permanent image alterations (commonly referred to as burn-in, though burn-out would be the more accurate term) are largely under control, though.
3. The first wave of PC monitor panels had an unusual subpixel arrangement, which broke Windows Cleartype rendering (which, IMHO, is the Devil anyway and you don't need to worry about it) and some people complain about colored seams on high contrast borders. The second wave is better and not everyone sees the effect, so definitely look at one in a shop. With a regular Desktop image, not tropical birds and coral reefs.
Monkey wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 1:31 am Amiga games:

Some of my fav games:
Intact,
Ooh, I did not know that one. Looks very much like Battle Squadron.
Monkey wrote: Sensible world of soccer, Cannon fodder, Bloodwych (IMO the best 2 player split screen fantasy RPG), Hired guns (IMO the best 4 player split screen futuristic RPG), James pond 2 Robocod (IMO the best platformer), Apidya, Lords of chaos(IMO the best turn-based fantasy game), Supercars 2, SWIV (successor to Silkworm), Worms, North and South, Settlers 2, Pinball {dreams,fantasies}, ...
Yeah, those are classics. I think I only played Supercars, North and South and Apidya.
Monkey wrote: Dogs of war
Never heard of that one. Germany was in a very strict anti-violence craze back in those days... yeah, checked, this one was on the "Index für Jugendgefärdende Schriften" and could not be advertised at all or sold to minors.
Monkey wrote: Double dragon, Street fighter 2, Dune 2,
I did not know those had Amiga versions. How the hell did Street Fighter 2 cope with just one joystick button?
Monkey wrote: I'm sure you've heard of the site "Lemon Amiga". I've just looked at their list of best and worst Amiga games. I've played most of the best ones and, thankfully, only 2 of the worst ones (Days of thunder, a truly terrible game and Street fighter, which was not great).
No, I never came across that site. I don't consume a lot of retro related media. Bookmarked.
Monkey wrote: I also bought a SNES, later on in life but I don't have it any more. Super Mariokart and Street Fighter 2 were my 2 favs on that console.
I still have the one I bought used, with Parodius, Zelda: A Linkt to the Past, Super Turrican (also geat, also not too hard), Axelay and Super Ghouls'n Ghosts.

Lucifer: The C64 has a great total library. We never had one at home, so I'm somehow obsessed with my memories of playing Castles of Dr Creep at a friends house.
Yes, there was a grand stategy game just called Empire. I think I might have played the sequel, Empire Deluxe, for a bit.

Tools wise, I used the included Amiga Basic (by Microsoft.... interpreted, not as good as BlitzBasic, obv), and an assembler based IDE called Profimat, written in assembler. It was as comfortable as it could get. You edit your code, press a button, and it runs. The assembly step was practically instantaneous. Of course, lacking memory protection and stuff, and this being assembler, if you made a mistake, that often ended it a reboot and lengthy reload.
And some C compiler I forgot the name of. It came on two disks, one with the preprocessor and includes, the other with the compiler. So if you did not have a hard disk, you had to swap disks for every compilation. Kids these days don't know how good they have it.
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Re: Gamescom 2015

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Lucifer wrote:Emerald Mine is the greatest of the Amiga games
I've played that one, I'm sure. It's the boulder dash clone right?
Lucifer wrote: I liked Firepower a lot, too
Never heard of it till now. I'll give it a try, looks interesting.
Lucifer wrote:I usually go back to the Commodore 64 for retro games
I've never played on one. I had a ZX Spectrum 128+, which is from the same era, however I preferred my/our Amiga 500 to it really, for me the Amiga 500/1200(and Atari ST) set the standard for multi-purpose computers, for years to come.
Lucifer wrote:DeluxePaint and SAS C, and BlitzBasic
Deluxe Paint was great.
Z-Man wrote:Tools wise, I used the included Amiga Basic
I wrote my first full game in "AMOS". The game was a clone of Microsoft's Minesweeper.
Z-Man wrote:Germany was in a very strict anti-violence craze back in those days.
Something I have learnt from my son is that violent games don't really make you violent, it's competitive games that make you violent, e.g. Fifa, etc. I've played some violent games with him like C-dogs, Open Arena, etc and nothing, but when he loses at Fifa he goes nuts (a bit like some Tronners I might add).
Z-Man wrote:How the hell did Street Fighter 2 cope with just one joystick button?
Strange direction combos for special moves. It worked though, IMO.
Z-Man wrote:You might want to hold your horses, though, because OLEDs come with three main disadvantages currently
Noted.
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Re: Gamescom 2015

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I forgot about AMOS. I did a lot of BASIC stuff with it.
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