Call to server owners: Global Ban of Vogue

[Vogue]

Oh god.. dark tetrad traits. Yeah, trolls in tron are definitely psychopaths!

[S0lutai]

Ever heard of the saying "sticks and stones may break my bones BUT WORDS WILL NEVER HURT" the caps was for you sine.

Someone's mad. (and it isn't me...)

Yeah I wonder if it was my words that made him react that way? Weird. And as usual, relevant xkcd.

Also, we've known for many years now that the old "sticks and stones" adage is empty of real meaning. Welcome to the 21st Century where trite, ignorant sayings evaporate under the eye of science.

if there isn't anything of value in the statement, then you shouldn't be putting any weight on it. If someone calls you retard/dumb etc, why should you give a shit? Yeah there were totally different kinds of insults, but man you must be really butthurt to immediately come and complain on forums. Grow up. Stop being crybabies. Move on. If my workmate calls me dumb or fat or shit, I'm not going to cry with the boss and tell him to fire him. Just ignore? Most likely. This ain't elementary school. It's a game and you should spend your time, well, playing the game.

Lastly, it's worth mentioning that, there are some cases in which someone may be rude or put you down, but they're just tactless. If you can extract any constructive criticism or valid arguments out of someone, even if it means sending them an automated response telling them to be nicer, it can be worth your while.
It takes a bit of practice and conditioning, but the main goal is to just stop giving a crap about what other people think.

Anyone realizes the amount of ACTUAL time play tron could get if people didn't post useless threads like this one? Blame forums or community? want to endlessly write all your thoughts? Go to reddit or something. Guess I could have played tron 10 minutes if I didn't spend them reading this and replying to this. Such foolishness.

[nara]

I'm tired of reading such a stupid but popular opinion in this community.

Bullying is a real phenomenon in real life or on the Internet. Instead of telling people to just deal with it, when the reality of it can be very horrifying and unbearable, I think you should think or talk to others with different experiences than you before telling them to just deal with whatever they have to deal with, that you know nothing about.

I would say your workmate calling you dumb or fat once is insulting but very minor. Kids in elementary school have faced worse cases of bullying than that. Often it's a group thing, and a repeated thing. Or, if it's on the grid, it can be someone following you around servers to attack you. Even if it's not harmful (which I know for a fact it can be when it gets bad enough), at the very least it's unpleasant.

I don't think you should be telling others how they should feel about experiences that they face, not you. Instead of blaming innocent people who have done nothing wrong, why don't you focus your energy on people perpetrating harm? That's probably a better use of your time.

[sinewav]

if there isn't anything of value in the statement, then you shouldn't be putting any weight on it.

You didn't follow the meaning of my post. I simply pointed out that the old adage "Sticks and Stones" is meaningless because it is untrue. It can't be used in a reasonable argument and it doesn't qualify as an insult, so how could I or anyone else be butthurt by that post?

If someone calls you retard/dumb etc, why should you give a shit?...If my workmate calls me dumb or fat or shit, I'm not going to cry with the boss and tell him to fire him. Just ignore? Most likely.

You miss the point completely. First, in a civilized society that kind of behavior from co-workers should never be tolerated, and in fact, is not. Every professional organization I've ever worked for makes this perfectly clear in those tedious, day long orientation meetings (maybe you've not old enough or never had one of those jobs?). Everyone employed is under obligation to report such incidents. That's the grown-up thing to do, not the little kid thing to do.

Second, we are not addressing single, isolated incidents from a few individuals, but the rapid decline in civility among Armagetron players. People are fed up. It's become a huge problem and growing a thicker skin is not a solution. People are complaining for good reason.

Anyone realizes the amount of ACTUAL time play tron could get if people didn't post useless threads like this one?

Thanks for your post about posting? If you aren't going to contribute positively, please don't bother giving us your uninformed, non-solutions.

[ConVicT]

First, in a civilized society that kind of behavior from co-workers should never be tolerated, and in fact, is not.

What?
This, in my country, is called "banter".
It's how we all get along, know what we can, or shouldn't say to specific people.
Offensive jokes can be funny, even to the easily offended. Where I'm from, it's called "taking it on the chin".
Maybe it's just be because I'm Scottish, but you all seem to have been brought up wearing earplugs and blindfolds.

"Make the world a better place"...
I agree, but is Armagetron (or the internet) anywhere to start?
I can only repeat what I've said before: Stop complaining, ignore these people, argue back, or wtf just sit in a padded cell somewhere and cry about the world not being what you signed up for. FFS

[TheRealTweezy]

I can only repeat what I've said before: Stop complaining, ignore these people, argue back, or wtf just sit in a padded cell somewhere and cry about the world not being what you signed up for. FFS

The fact of the matter right there

[nara]

What?
This, in my country, is called "banter".
It's how we all get along, know what we can, or shouldn't say to specific people.
Offensive jokes can be funny, even to the easily offended. Where I'm from, it's called "taking it on the chin".
Maybe it's just be because I'm Scottish, but you all seem to have been brought up wearing earplugs and blindfolds.

"Make the world a better place"...
I agree, but is Armagetron (or the internet) anywhere to start?
I can only repeat what I've said before: Stop complaining, ignore these people, argue back, or wtf just sit in a padded cell somewhere and cry about the world not being what you signed up for. FFS

For someone advocating this subject doesn't matter, you've contributed a number of posts interjecting your strong opinions.

I understand different cultures have different kinds of humor. Maybe offensive language is accepted in some circles. Is that what we're talking about though? I know it's not what I've been talking about, to also repeat myself again. Would you count Pressure following me to servers and attacking me banter? Or him insulting me for 20-30 minutes because I polled him? I've made the point I understand people have different opinions about words in my very first posts in the original thread.

Why isn't the Internet the place to start? People communicate, socialize, and interact daily on the Internet. It's become a very prevalent part of modern life. People have killed themselves over cyberbullying. Also, you are speaking in and inhabiting this online community right now, so it makes sense to work on this community. Making changes here does not prevent you from making changes in your own life. This should be obvious, especially since others have pointed it out to you before.

Please read and absorb what people say to your points. If you do not agree with their response to your statement, explain why. Repeating the same opinion doesn't accomplish anything.

[sinewav]

It's how we all get along, know what we can, or shouldn't say to specific people.

Convict, we all know what "banter" is and "taking it on the chin." That's not what's happening here in Armagetron. Ganging up on someone, following them from server to server, and bashing them repeatedly for days on end is not some light-hearted fun. Your comparison doesn't match the problem.

"Make the world a better place"...
I agree, but is Armagetron (or the internet) anywhere to start?

Yes, it's the perfect place to start. All great strides in human rights begin with a bottom-up approach from the smallest spaces. It was true for the elimination of slavery, voting rights for women, legal recognition of homosexual unions, etc. The list goes on. Not to sound cliché, but the change in the world starts with you, now.

The Internet is ubiquitous. It rightfully deserves the most attention because it is a vehicle for ideas, which are the drivers of civilization.

I can only repeat what I've said before: Stop complaining, ignore these people, argue back, or wtf just sit in a padded cell somewhere and cry about the world not being what you signed up for. FFS

Again, those are not solutions and never were. What you are describing is submission to poor behavior.

[ConVicT]

Why isn't the Internet the place to start?

Ambiguity!

@sinwav
I can't even formulate an answer because it feels too repetitive.
I will say that I do understand, and I don't see it as submission.

If you're so easily annoyed, then the internet is the worst place for you, PERIOD!
Nobody has to sign up as a "nice person" to go on the internet.
Infact, I bet more than half the people who socialize on the internet are sexist, racist, homophobic etc.
There's a multitude of greatness out there, but also the same goes for trolling, and trolling will always, no matter what anyone says, provale. You know why I think that? It's because I think that there are ten thousand idiots to the decent person.

In this debate, I'm outy, because it's just going in circles, and y'all can't see that you can't change it, and you never will.

P.S As for Armagetron, there is none of this in my server, I make sure of it.
How about you server owners do the same

[sinewav]

If you're so easily annoyed, then the internet is the worst place for you, PERIOD!

You can't seem to get it into your skull that this isn't about people being easily annoyed, this is about bullying. As an example, Nara has been playing this game for many, many years. Longer than me I think and I started in 2007. She's not easily annoyed, otherwise she would have quit long before you came on the scene. There is a problem here and a fair amount of people refuse to recognize it (which is, of course, part of the problem).

You know why I think that? It's because I think that there are ten thousand idiots to the decent person. In this debate, I'm outy, because it's just going in circles, and y'all can't see that you can't change it, and you never will.

You haven't contributed anything but negativity so you won't be missed in this conversation. I'm sorry you can't believe in the goodness of people. Most people in Armagetron are decent and it's proven by our leniency. And because of this leniency we now have an out of control problem with troublemakers. As I've mentioned before, we are a self-moderating community — and we've been letting spoiled children run amok for far too long.

P.S As for Armagetron, there is none of this in my server, I make sure of it. How about you server owners do the same

That's exactly the point of this and related threads. Global moderation, global bans, a robust system for managing troublemakers. I've assigned several moderators in my servers and that number will only increase. If we get enough server owners to take charge, it can tip the balance against those who disrupt the community. I would prefer you join us in the fight, but seeing as you don't think there is a problem I'm not counting on you. My guess is you probably just kick everyone in your server who complains about how they are treated.

[Monkey]

y'all can't see that you can't change it, and you never will

As for Armagetron, there is none of this in my server, I make sure of it. How about you server owners do the same.

Firstly, those two quotes are fairly contradictory. Secondly, the whole point of what we are saying and doing is to make sure that there is as little trouble as possible in as many Armagetron servers as is possible. This is basically the same as what you are doing in your server so how can you say it won't work for us if it works for you?

[ConVicT]

My guess is you probably just kick everyone in your server who complains about how they are treated.

The server has been up and very active for almost 2 months and as so far, I haven't had to kick a single person.
But there's also no trouble, because as soon as someone says something offensive, they get a warning via "/admin say", which will be something along the lines of "If you say something like that again, you're gone".
I do get trouble making players (I won't name names), but even they don't cause anything in my server.

This is basically the same as what you are doing in your server so how can you say it won't work for us if it works for you?

It works for me, simply because I am active, and so are the mods. I can't think of many servers where this is true.

Also there's a lot of talk about this global moderation.
I've still to see anything happen. What's the progress with this since it was brought up like, what, 3 weeks ago?

Well, our ideas haven't failed yet.

Bit hard for something to fail if it never begins.
It's a bit like tom7's playfun when it pauses tetris so that it can't lose.

[S0lutai]

If you're so easily annoyed, then the internet is the worst place for you, PERIOD!

You can't seem to get it into your skull that this isn't about people being easily annoyed, this is about bullying. As an example, Nara has been playing this game for many, many years. Longer than me I think and I started in 2007. She's not easily annoyed, otherwise she would have quit long before you came on the scene. There is a problem here and a fair amount of people refuse to recognize it (which is, of course, part of the problem).

Wait, are you really referring to this nonsense as bullying? lol. Would you get annoyed if I called you straight? (Yeah probably the other insult was indeed hurtful but not true at all I guess?) but it's all about the way one takes it. I can say "hey dude your shirt is the sh*t!" and it's up to you if you take "sh*t" as "awesome" or literally "sh*t". There is always gonna be bad people on the Internet and tbh a ban would literally do like nothing. I can say hey you all ban me from all the servers but it won't matter in the end b/c 2 words: Dinamic IP. Can ban her everytime she enters the server but how is that gonna work? You will be just wasting your time.

You know why I think that? It's because I think that there are ten thousand idiots to the decent person. In this debate, I'm outy, because it's just going in circles, and y'all can't see that you can't change it, and you never will.

You haven't contributed anything but negativity so you won't be missed in this conversation. I'm sorry you can't believe in the goodness of people. Most people in Armagetron are decent and it's proven by our leniency. And because of this leniency we now have an out of control problem with troublemakers. As I've mentioned before, we are a self-moderating community — and we've been letting spoiled children run amok for far too long.

Indeed just going in circles, go ahead and try to make the perfect system, it's not gonna work anyway, save some effort for something else.

P.S As for Armagetron, there is none of this in my server, I make sure of it. How about you server owners do the same

That's exactly the point of this and related threads. Global moderation, global bans, a robust system for managing troublemakers. I've assigned several moderators in my servers and that number will only increase. If we get enough server owners to take charge, it can tip the balance against those who disrupt the community. I would prefer you join us in the fight, but seeing as you don't think there is a problem I'm not counting on you. My guess is you probably just kick everyone in your server who complains about how they are treated.

Your "robust system" doesn't seem to work at all to me. How hard can it be for a troll just to go aliased and keep doing their thing? Hasn't Liz played like 2 or 3 ladles after her ban? What stops her from doing it again? a silly IP that can easily be changed? a Global ID that can easily be replaced? There's not really a lot people can do within tron to stop those things. What actions have been done against Swag attacks?

All of this just seems to be as a "If someone offends me I'll go complain with Zman or Sine or whoever is in charge."
Most owners/admins (thankfull there are still good admins around) but mostly YOU, Sine are just like "Let's ban this, let's ban that, I banned this, I'll ban that" archetype of admin. No one says let's fix this let's fix that, I can go now and make a topic about things I dislike from tron (which aren't really much) and I can guarantee 100% I'll get a "deal with it" response from most of the owners. Some owners are really ignorant. and that won't change. But of course we want to make a complete criminal trial for some childish concern of someone insulting someone. LOL this thread.

[Monkey]

are you really referring to this nonsense as bullying?

But of course we want to make a complete criminal trial for some childish concern of someone insulting someone.

What nara and Chrisd have experienced is bullying/harrassment. The fact that you call it "nonsense" and a "childish concern" discusts me.

I can say "hey dude your shirt is the sh*t!" and it's up to you if you take "sh*t" as "awesome" or literally "sh*t".

What on Earth are you talking about? That is clearly just a miscommunication/misunderstanding and is completely different from the constant harrassment that some players are facing.

go ahead and try to make the perfect system, it's not gonna work anyway

He never claimed it will be perfect, nothing in life is. Do remember though that it's not just about server owners banning people, which, as you say, currently will be of limited use. It's about having moderators in servers as much as possible to deal with unacceptable behaviour. As long as a server has at least one moderator in it, it won't really matter if someone comes in using a different alias and/or IP, as long as they are behaving inappropriately, their behaviour will be dealt with.

LOL this thread.

If anything should be LOLed at it's the incoherent drivel that you post.

[sinewav]

Another post by S0lutai? I thought this was above him? Oh well. I will attempt to respond to his post with small, easy to read statements since he is making the same mistakes other repeatedly make.

• Neither I, nor Z-Man, nor anyone else is in-charge of community disputes, Ladle, or any similar institution. We are a self-moderating community, and Ladle (along with several other tournaments) is decentralized.
  
  Vogue's ban is strictly part of the Ladle framework where bans are largely symbolic. The reason why it isn't effective is because Ladle is decentralized. We can make it effective by creating the @ladle authority, but this means someone needs to be in charge, and as of today the community is undecided on this issue.
  
  There is no robust system in place for Global Bans, so it would be odd to say it doesn't work since it doesn't exist. There are a lot of details to work out, but some of us are playing with ideas. Outside the technical hurdles, there are also philosophical ones. It will take some time.
  
  Not only do we not have a ban system, no one has claimed a future system will be perfect. It just needs to be effective enough to reduce trouble-making, which is totally possible. The main hurdles are not even technical, but conceptual.

I see a lot of black and white thinking from some of you. The idea that "there will always be trolls so there is no reason to try and stop them" is one of the biggest fallacies I encounter almost daily. It is entirely possible to change culture, and evidence of this change abounds.