Durf’s Ban (and other related topics)

[Light]

Sorry, no own cats here, and posting other people's cats would feel like stealing.

You can have one or two of mine for a photo op, but I'm gonna take them back.

[Light]

As far as Durf goes, people seem to generally agree for the most part. There's the few of you that want to make Durf more right than he ever was, but mostly people agree he should be given a chance to come back. Most of us also agree that we don't want this stuff here arguing about how right or wrong he was.

This is more than just letting Durf back onto the forums. This is about seeing whether the moderators were "just" in banning him in the first place, or if they abused their power and treated him unfairly. I think I've already done a decent job of this, but the community should be informed about what the truth of the matter is.

"A few of you". And that's so much less compared to the other few people posting? You have no statistical evidence that shows that most tron players think that Durf deserved his ban, and that doesn't even do anything to validate it because its a logical fallacy to think that general agreement equates to validation. So I suggest you guys stop with "Everyone except a small, loud minority agrees" as it only weakens whatever argument you're trying to make.

My claims have still not been invalidated, and until you, or someone else, can do that, you aren't in much of a position to say that the matter is settled and I'm wrong.

Appeal to popularity isn't going to be a proper call for you here. We're not talking about factual things, but ideas and feelings. What actually matters is that he was given a chance to explain his side of it, and the mods and admin came to an agreement on what the outcome should be. This is their place to choose what rules they'd like it to go by and what kind of place they want here. Durf was given multiple chances to stop, but he wanted to keep shoving his feelings in everyone's faces and attacking the mods. He deserved what he got, and yes it was just. You may be able to go on about everything else that he did or didn't do, but he did threaten the forums, he talked bad about the mods, and he continued to argue once they wanted it to stop. So, you're right. It doesn't matter what all of us think, what the community's consensus is about it, because the authority here has already made of their mind months ago and we should learn to accept it and move on.

[aP|Nelg]

Why do you all seem to think Durf has actually DONE something (to ruin the forums)? Why won't you all let in some discussion for once? Oh, discussion is overrated. I'm not blaming the devs for that, cause they haven't locked the topic. (yet) But CATS!!!!!!!!! /me sneezes, coughs, and faints

Yes, we did, in the original ban thread. Similar analogies like you brought up to his threat were put forward, you said nothing fundamentally new. I hate repeating myself

Link, please.

because the authority here has already made of their mind months ago and we should learn to accept it and move on.

Is this not a community based forum? Actually, though, it seems half of the community seem to agree with the devs for some bizzare reason...

[Light]

because the authority here has already made of their mind months ago and we should learn to accept it and move on.

Is this not a community based forum? Actually, though, it seems half of the community seem to agree with the devs for some bizzare reason...

But it's up to them what kind of community they want to have here. Whether we agree with them or not, it's what they've chosen and we should at some point stop fighting it. I've argued with them in the past about things, and in the end, we came to an understanding. At least well enough we were going to agree we weren't coming to an agreement and move on peacefully. If Durf would have done that, none of this would have ever happened, and now we should move on and let it go.

[D33P]

Yes, we did,...

The threat was made after the events in the original ban thread, meaning it was impossible to say how this specific threat is unjust if it hadn’t even been made yet.

The threat happening on and affecting Tanks property does not automatically make the threat unjustified, so you would have to actually detail how it was unjustified in full.

No threat is justified when you can just walk away? I’d highly disagree. Take for instance, if someone was committing a crime against a large number of people, such as secretly stealing their money. I could threaten them, “if you don’t stop stealing their money, I’m going to bring you to the authorities to get you arrested” I could also just walk away and forget about the whole thing. But is that the best option? Is threatening to report to the authorities an unjust action? Didn’t think so.

Again, the only way to say whether it was justified is to actually detail its justification, not to say “oh these types of threats are never justified”, as the “never” part is almost always going to be false.

[D33P]

Appeal to popularity isn't going to be a proper call for you here. We're not talking about factual things, but ideas and feelings.

Why are we talking about feelings and not facts? This is supposed to be an evidence based discussion. Also if you weren’t trying to legitimize/justify the moderator's decision with noting how “most” people agree with it, what was the point?

What actually matters is that he was given a chance to explain his side of it, and the mods and admin came to an agreement on what the outcome should be. This is their place to choose what rules they'd like it to go by and what kind of place they want here.

I’m repeating myself again, but I’m talking about what they should do/should have done, not what they can do. I can tell anyone what they should and shouldn't do. You can choose to not listen, but I still have the right to do that.

Durf was given multiple chances to stop, but he wanted to keep shoving his feelings in everyone's faces and attacking the mods.

Stop what? Shove his feelings in everyone’s faces? Attacking the mods? You’ve provided no evidence for this. If you have any, you should post it here, otherwise it doesn’t go along with the theme of logic and evidence based argument.

He deserved what he got, and yes it was just.

You have yet to invalidate most of my argument, so how can you say it was just, when you haven’t been able to disprove my argument that it was unjust? Please give me some logic and evidence if you are going to post here.

but he did threaten the forums,

I already posted how just a plain threat means nothing, and you haven’t been able to invalidate this claim.

he talked bad about the mods,

Because he feels he was wronged? So that people in the future don’t get wronged?

and he continued to argue once they wanted it to stop.

Show me where the mods explicitly told Durf to stop talking about the ban, and he kept on going. Evidence is required.

because the authority here has already made of their mind months ago and we should learn to accept it and move on.

So we should blindly accept the authority and not question it? >.>

[ConVicT]

I have barely read any of tbh, but I swear on Tron's life that i'll get around to it.

I just want to ask, since this is a post about Durf and his right or wrong doings: could we please allow Durf to speak for himself?
I mean if the topic is allowed, shouldn't his say also be allowed?
Everyone has a right to a lawyer, but at the same time everyone has the right to speak for themselves!

[D33P]

In response to people saying how Durf had a chance to explain himself:

Zmans warning about the ban:

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 17#p292217

Tanks warning about the ban:

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 74#p292374

You say Durf had a chance to explain himself, but

Take back your hacking threat and I will try to read some ow what you wrote as deescalation attempts.
This has to be your next post. ... If you do not comply, I have no choice but to ban you.]

THIS IS YOUR ABSOLUTELY FINAL WARNING ON THE SUBJECT OF HACKING DURF. ANY MORE POSTS ON IT AND YOU WILL BE BANNED.

*note that these are threats

doesn't sound like he had a chance to explain himself. If he did anything besides either not posting about it again (not defending himself) or saying sorry (not defending himself; he probably has a reason for why he shouldn't have to say sorry, but he can't say this), he would be banned. Therefore, this proves that the moderators did not give Durf a chance to explain himself.

[Light]

You keep calling it "defending himself", but he was the attacker here. Z-Man said it perfectly fine. If you can simply walk away, attacking is not self defense.

So, you're basically saying this is a thread about whether or not what happened was right or wrong. What's your end goal, an apology? This seems like you're going through a lot of effort for nothing then. Let's say they apologized .. Nothing changes and everything continues as is. They shouldn't though, because they're not wrong in removing a part of the community that keeps causing them trouble.

You seem to feel as if we're entitled to something here, and we're not. We simply enjoy what they're giving us. Most of us don't even do anything to help out. Why should we be their bosses?

[compguygene]

Why Cat pictures? They are cute. They are fun. Their pictures are universally adored on the Internet.
Why in this topic? Well, cats are a much more worthy topic of discussion than this. At this point there is no point in this discussion. There is no reason that we can't agree to disagree about the whole mess. D33P, Durf, and other of Durf's supporters feel one way. Most others around here support what the mods chose. Others just don't care and want the drama over.
Agree to disagree.
Enjoy the cats.

[D33P]

You keep calling it "defending himself", but he was the attacker here. Z-Man said it perfectly fine. If you can simply walk away, attacking is not self defense.

So you're saying Durf shouldn't have a chance to defend himself? Even the worst, most obvious criminals get to have a fair trial. I already addressed how the option of walking away doesn't automatically make a threat unjust.

So, you're basically saying this is a thread about whether or not what happened was right or wrong. What's your end goal, an apology? This seems like you're going through a lot of effort for nothing then. Let's say they apologized .. Nothing changes and everything continues as is. They shouldn't though, because they're not wrong in removing a part of the community that keeps causing them trouble.

I already responded to this, but I'll say it again. I'm not just here to get Durf unbanned. I'm not just here to get some kind of apology. Those things would be nice, but they aren't the only reason I'm here. I'm partly here to inform the community of moderator wrong-doings, so they can make educated decisions about what to do with the game in the future.

You seem to feel as if we're entitled to something here, and we're not. We simply enjoy what they're giving us. Most of us don't even do anything to help out. Why should we be their bosses?

I have expected no entitlement that any person wouldn't normally have, in this thread. I'm saying what the moderators should be doing, which is my opinion. I don't have to contribute to something just so I can give my opinion on what it should do. If I see something that could be done better, why would I not say it? Why would I let the community/game be worse by not informing people of how it could be better?

[Light]

Durf has gotten a chance to defend himself. He did it for months on end and the moderators actually put up with it and listened to him for quite a while. That's more than they really should have done. They should have ended it sooner.

You can state your opinion, but you're not really presenting anything new. And people around here for the most part know what happened, and most of us seem to have moved on. You should do the same.

[D33P]

Durf has gotten a chance to defend himself.

Incorrect. Look at my post about Zman and Tanks warning. He did not get a chance to defend himself. He would have been banned if he did. Its getting a little tiring when you keep on repeating your points after I've already invalidated them. If you aren't interested in discussing with logic and evidence, I suggest you stop posting.

[compguygene]

So, are you saying that we should develop more detailed rules? Honestly, that just makes it easier to evade and break them.
Are you saying the mods did wrong? Tank already pointed out where Z-man and Lucifer did overreact.
So, to me at least, it seems you are just bringing back up stuff that has been long since dealt with....
What is new here?
Nobody said the mods are perfect. You have called them out on something that they have already admitted their own fault in. I just don't get it. What is the point?

[Light]

What you posted showed that even after he threatened them he didn't get banned. Ge got a warning. He never stopped. He deserved what he got. By now, even he should be cooled down enough to understand that.

Move on to something more useful. This does nothing to help the community. It doesn't even help Durf. If anything, you're likely making things worse picking arguments about it rather than letting things go.

You should come be this passionate about figuring out how to properly compile the new source with SDL 2. That would actually do something to help better the community, and at least two currently troubled users would have an answer.

Have a good night.