3 month review (forum split)

[Lucifer]

Yeah, we were working on 0.3.1 at one point, but then I got divorced, which took up all of my time. Since I was the de facto release manager for the 0.3 series, we ended up only having the one release.

[kyle]

What are the biggest things that need fixed / implemented before the 0.4 release?

[[Anonymous]]

The Devs have done more than enough it's time for the community as a whole to start doing stuff for Tron instead of complaining.
Sigh...
Let's get the best coders available and start some new projects etc.

A month from now I may be starting my own little coding party with the src.

Not to take sides or anything, but:

How often do you see someone who develops something just fall off the face of the Earth and leave it up to other people to further the development? That doesn't exactly happen often. All of you idiots keep preaching this like a broken record when you don't realize that the development being lead by the community is not the norm. Sure, people could help, but quit acting like it's expected of people. Better yet, just stop feeling entitled to shit in general. It makes the world a better place.

That is all.

It's OPEN SOURCE. Don't be the same mother ****** who complains the game is dead but don't contribute anything in return.

[aP|Nelg]

What are the biggest things that need fixed / implemented before the 0.4 release?

I am compiling a list below:

• I get slightly better FPS with 0.2 than 0.4. I mean 0.4 has playable FPS, but it seems you need a Nvidia graphics card to play at a smooth FPS on all servers (60 or above) I get 300-800 FPS on my laptop with 0.2, but only ~130 on 0.4. I know that is still a good framerate, but thats some FPS we're loosing, and it is much more of a noticeable play difference FPS when playing on servers. Something must be bringing down the FPS somewhere on the rendering stage.
• An option to turn on/off certain sounds without having to remove files from the sound directory.
• A way to remove stuff on the HUD without modifications to default cockpit file. Mostly the big analog clock becomes a complaint from most people.
• I want the cockpit shortcut keys to also be stuff in the menu that you can use instead of being forced to define shortcut keys. I don't want a shortcut key JUST to change the minimap to something I like when I'm never going to change it again (or very rarely.)
• A way to switch to the old font system. (That's a common complaint)
• We certainly need some touch screen compatibility. I tried playing tron on a windows 8 tablet and had troubles because the default on-screen keyboard didn't have arrow keys. I would have to buy a bluetooth keyboard JUST to play tron on the go if I didn't want to carry a laptop?
• Should I mention that if I sit on the menu long enough, the background moving floor starts getting kind of glitchy? I'd assume that the longer it's open, the more video RAM it has to use just for that animation.
• I know that this isn't a big thing, but I think you should integrate color tab completion right into 0.4: http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... =4&t=23566
  I don't think +ap should be the only thing with that.
• It should cache the server list in a way so that you don't have to wait to connect to the master server every time you load the server list. Or, it should load from the master servers in the background.
• 0.4 should be ported to android for REAL. If you're going to remake tron like tank tried to, at least make it LOOK like tron.

I think that's about it for now.

you'd be better off starting anew with an engine that supports browser based play and mobile.

I disagree strongly. Armagetron isn't so low on players because it can't be played in a browser or on a mobile device.

I'll go ahead and mention that I too don't agree with Durf making a webgl tron game because I'm afraid it will split the community and kill this tron.
EDIT: Nevermind, I was thinking that he was remaking the game completely with different physics.

[TaZ]

Heck. Might as well say it now. I still want to take care of 0.4 myself, but If anyone feels like replacing me for what comes afterwards, speak up. I've been doing this for 15 years and am a bit tired. This here sometimes feels more like work than my actual job. The transition can be now already, you can take over the Trunk immediately. dlh and epsy would be my favourites, they both have shown over and over that they're willing to just do what needs to be done. I think the only really bad code (apart from my own) I've seen you guys write was the moviepack selection thing in Origins, so from the technical side, everyone who contributed to ct+sty or main probably is qualified. If several of you would rather split responsibilities, if someone really, really wants to be a 'community manager' only, fine by me.

I'll definitely stick around for a bit to do the things I have a setup to do easily, like the builds, bzr-svn syncing and master server running.

Regarding the state of the playerbase, I'd appreciate if ya all could stop pointing out the obvious so smugly, as if it's somehow a win for you. Influx and active player count have fallen below critical levels. New players seeing 100+ empty servers rightfully do not stick around. Our "business model" is a dinosaur; we're under pressure from microtransaction financed, seemingly free high quality games on one side and better and better games that just run in a browser from the other side. Nobody installs a client just to play a no-budget game these days. There really is nothing sensible that can be done in the long term with this project to improve its market position, you'd be better off starting anew with an engine that supports browser based play and mobile. In the sort of short term, the only thing I can do is work on 0.4 (what you can do has been discussed elsewhere). Hopefully, its release will generate a bit of buzz and the new player herding in the server browser (yes, I know that in the current landscape, it only recommends empty servers, that is going to be tweaked or otherwise looked at again) will stabilize the player ecosystem. For maybe another two or three years. Everything must die at one point, it's fine by me if it ends with 0.4. How many other online games have lasted 15 years?

Here's my issue. When the community brought up the idea to Greenlight Armagetron on Steam(at least 5 times), I only saw one post from a dev that showed slight support for the idea. http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 3&start=15 There have been many people on board with having Armagetron on steam, but if their ideas aren't addressed, what makes you think they want to help take over development or be a "community manager".

Z-man, you told them what they primarily needed, but didn't give any extra guidance whatsoever. That's why all these ideas always drop off. It's not because people don't want to help, rather it's because they have no kind of guidance from the devs. No one wants to step on your toes, and we all saw how Tron 2 Origins made some of you defensive. When people like that ANONYMOUS dude complain about how people aren't contributing, it couldn't be more false. People want to contribute, but I can tell you they feel like you all don't give a shit, which is why they simply lose interest.

This community is already pretty locked with big decisions being made without the community's input. This wouldn't be a problem if the dev's didn't present this false notion that "your opinion matters". Your business model is archaic because whenever alternative methods to increase the player base are brought up, you all shy away from them. You have so many people who would be more than willing to either code or learn code to further progress this game. The issue is there is a big separation between the devs and players. There is no liaison to bring the community and devs together.

If you're ready to let this project go, then be ready to provide proper transitions to those who may want to take it over. Nobody wants a fork of this game, we already saw what happened to Tron 2 Origins. People want to continue to play the game they've played for years. They want the original game, and as mentioned in previous threads, are willing to give the time and money to make that happen.

[sinewav]

Player 3 Enters The Game!

If you're ready to let this project go, then be ready to provide proper transitions to those who may want to take it over.

That's not how it works in the world of FOSS. It's basically, "Hey, hey you don't like my project? Fork-Off, buddy. Go make your own." All the code is there. No one is hiding anything or keeping secrets.

Nobody wants a fork of this game, we already saw what happened to Tron 2 Origins.

The failure of Origins was because that sub-community failed to provide a decent product, plus there was a lot of spite driving the fork. There were even fractures in their sub-community. That failure is not likely to happen again provided that people learn from those mistakes.

People want to continue to play the game they've played for years. They want the original game, and as mentioned in previous threads, are willing to give the time and money to make that happen.

Remember, you are playing Armagetron Advanced, which is a fork of Armagetron, which evolved from the project "Walls." A fork of Armagetron Advanced to ...what? ...Armagetron Ultimate? ...will not kill the game if done properly.

Here is what I have to say: If the problem is the lack of merges, then fork the project and start merging. There is no reason you can't fork this game and keep it compatible enough to smoothly transition from the old to new. Just maintain enough backwards compatibility that people who upgrade can still play with people who haven't until the momentum is there. This was the biggest problem with Origins; they had a completely new master server and environment.

Now, if the problem is lack of a suitable business model, or technology, or failure to evolve with modern gaming culture, then that is a different issue and has nothing to do with development. Arma would have to be rebuilt from the ground up, which is not impossible if the focus remains on gameplay & customization, and not cosmetics. However, this would be much more difficult than a fork and there would be no guarantee of widespread success.

Here is my personal opinion that no one asked for: I enjoy this game just as much as I did years ago. However, if there were a better lightcycle game out there I would simply play that one instead. This is the challenge. You would have to do enough research to know "what makes a better lightcycle game" and then deliver it. As someone who has played nearly every lightcycle game in existence I can tell you what it would take for me to switch.

[ConVicT]

As someone who has played nearly every lightcycle game in existence I can tell you what it would take for me to switch.

...But you're not going to?

Stay tuned for "sinwav's personal opinion that no one asked for" - Part Two:...

[sinewav]

...But you're not going to?

It would be quite a long read. If someone is serious about developing a new game and needs my expertise, I'll gladly assist. I got my first lightcycle in 1982 and have been riding ever since.

[Magi]

[*]I get slightly better FPS with 0.2 than 0.4. I mean 0.4 has playable FPS, but it seems you need a Nvidia graphics card to play at a smooth FPS on all servers (60 or above) I get 300-800 FPS on my laptop with 0.2, but only ~130 on 0.4. I know that is still a good framerate, but thats some FPS we're loosing, and it is much more of a noticeable play difference FPS when playing on servers. Something must be bringing down the FPS somewhere on the rendering stage.

I've noticed I have probably about 100-200 FPS more on the most recent .2.8.3 version compared to .4 as well, BUT I've also noticed that when I get to around 100-150 FPS on .2.8 it gets choppy and harder to play, compared to its normal 300 average, whereas on .4 I haven't seen my FPS ever hit below 60 in a normal game and even at 100-200 it's stable and I don't notice the changes.

[*]An option to turn on/off certain sounds without having to remove files from the sound directory.

I feel like there actually is an "on/off" switch in game but for whatever reason it doesn't work. So ya I agree

[*]A way to remove stuff on the HUD without modifications to default cockpit file. Mostly the big analog clock becomes a complaint from most people.
[*]I want the cockpit shortcut keys to also be stuff in the menu that you can use instead of being forced to define shortcut keys. I don't want a shortcut key JUST to change the minimap to something I like when I'm never going to change it again (or very rarely.)

Ya I could see this being useful, or maybe just a general better default cockpit that people vote on to be default, in game menu options to turn things off wouldn't be bad.

For me I've been using the .4 experimental version for over 2 years now I think, and from my personal experience it's been better than the .2.8 client. 2.8 crashed often for me and .4 very rarely full on crashes from game. Something I think needs to be looked into is fixing the black screen that seems to be hitting a majority of players lately. You'll still be in game, still able to chat but you can't turn or see anything so you have to leave and come back. I've mentioned it before I think it might have to with really long rounds or too many turns in one round and the client just doesn't load fully next round, I'm not sure because I have no experience in this field, but these are a couple of things I notice happen when my client black screens.

Also, has anyone emailed or gotten a hold of Tank to pop in here? Since I think the general consensus right now was to move competitions back to regular forums, but I believe only he has the power to do so.

[aP|Nelg]

I got my first lightcycle in 1982 and have been riding ever since.

Looks like you got the same lightcycle as in LightCycle Run

For me I've been using the .4 experimental version for over 2 years now I think, and from my personal experience it's been better than the .2.8 client.

I can mostly say the same thing about 0.4, or else I wouldn't use it. Can't wait to see what the zonesv2 servers will bring. I actually like the smart camera movement more on 0.4 then I do on 0.2. The minimap is a nice addition. The big clock isn't that much of an annoyance for me, but it does get into the way sometimes when trying to look at chat depending on the screen size.

Also, apparently the new font system allows us to be able to switch fonts to something else without editing images. However, does that mean we'd have to convert an image to a font somehow? Therefore, you can ignore my phrase about being able to switch to the old fonts.

You can plainly tell the difference between an 0.4 client and an 0.2 client, that's for sure. 0.2 didn't seem to like wide screens and didn't look the best on huge wide screens. I guess that is also an advantage of the new fonts and a cockpit?

[S0lutai]

It's OPEN SOURCE. Don't be the same mother ****** who complains the game is dead but don't contribute anything in return.

Don't be the same mother ****** who thinks that because it is open source complains shouldn't be accepted. "You don't like the game? Why don't you recode it your way?" Just no. Community is supposed to give feedback. But mainly to PLAY THE GAME" which is the only reason tron is more dead than ever. No one is playing.

Also the main reason I'm posting: WHY THE **** ISN'T DURF A DEVELOPER YET? He says that he's willing but you all just won't let him, that he can make awesome stuff for tron, but just lacks resources. that's just ridiculous.

I don't blame any of you devs of being busy, I don't even why care honestly. Why don't you let ONE of the very few people that can do shit for tron, well, do shit for tron? If you are busy taking care of your kids and stuff why don't you just let someone else develop the game? It makes no sense.

[/dev/null]

Us swapping main devs somewhat often isnt very odd or rare.

A lof of good points have been made to what it needs. To me, the .4 rubber is sloppier and less exact than the 2.6/7/8. It could easily just be me, but im pretty damn good at precise grinding and it seems like its been getting worse.

As for replacing the graphical subsystem, I imagine that would be quite the challenge, afaik the math behind the simulation and what displays is so clusterfucked together its near impossible to take it apart. Thats one of the reasons why you can grind more exactly without vsync on.

I wonder what we would do if someone just said **** it, lied, and tried to greenlight it on steam or something similar without permission. I doubt our community would get pissed or revolt, it would just avoid all the dicking around.

I feel fairly sure that a well polished (which tron really is, despite my gripes) multiplayer tron game would go over well.

[Z-Man]

We have a whole separate thread for 0.4 issues.

Greenlight

I have absolutely no clue of how to do a successful greenlight pitch, how to manage it and what to to if it succeeds. What kind if input could I provide apart from giving my blessing? (Which I did in one of the threads, I think) Well, I also think that Steam is not a good place for completely free games and that it will not give us as much visibility as some hope, but that's not helpful and apparently those wanting it there disagree.

This wouldn't be a problem if the dev's didn't present this false notion that "your opinion matters".

Hah. Did we ever present it that way? I let myself nail down to "your input is valued". But nope, not every opinion matters and some need to be ignored. Picking what is relevant, what to focus on, is our job. Random example:

[*]0.4 should be ported to android for REAL.

Simply not feasible with acceptable performance.
I do tent to read everything, mind. But I don't have time to give my thoughts to everything, sorry. I have to reserve replies to cases where more information is required.

proper transition

Yes, as I said, I'd stick around for builds and stuff. That probably includes explaining the one or other logic behind an odd bit of old code.

WHY THE **** ISN'T DURF A DEVELOPER YET?

Fundamentally incompatible ethics.

[Word]

Once you release the next version I'm gonna devise a guerilla marketing strategy with sine, if he's up for it, heh.

[aP|Nelg]

[*]0.4 should be ported to android for REAL.

Simply not feasible with acceptable performance.

Even if you had a nVidia Shield running android or something? I got acceptable performance on the windows tablet, but I couldn't play because I was lacking a keyboard on me at the moment. Although android and windows tablets by default have different hardware and software.

WHY THE **** ISN'T DURF A DEVELOPER YET?

Fundamentally incompatible ethics.

Basically, you don't like his behavior. Don't be Mr. BigWords to try to confuse us. Also, I don't fully agree with your choice to ban him from the forums either, but he's done more than most of us here, including a handy /servers. That could be implemented into tron.