Why...

[Treckstar]

I do realize that sexism is a very sensitive topic, especially for some people who have experienced it and experience it constantly, but my question to the tron community is: why are we still fighting about it. I will take Durf's side in that there is no sexism in any of his posts or actions. I will take Lucifer's side that we do need to punish that, especially if it happens constantly. But I do hope that many of you realize that a person experiencing harassment can just block the person, silence them, or just completely ignore them. It's not that hard to ignore someone (I've done that to many childhood bullies for the past 10 years). I see no need for continuing this fight or this topic in general, its a dead topic that we need to forget these events in general and just move on to play tron. Afterall it is just a game, what importance is it that you "win" this time...

[Durf]

First, claiming that the discussion is a dead topic then starting a new thread about it made me lol.
I might have just been your wording, but I lol'd.

Next, glad you can see that I wasn't being sexist.

Third, I too agree that Lucifer should do everything he can to stop sexism.

Lastly, considering that I wasn't sexist, that would mean that Lucifer banned me when he shouldn't have.
Further pursuing the matter in support of Vogue's claims that I was being sexist is harassing me. Constantly accusing and pressuring me to comply. What needs to be accepted is that I was wronged.

I too agree, that the forums need not have huge discussions about this; however at the same time, I don't think it's right to continually lock threads on the basis that it's a flame war when there ARE genuine people in those threads trying to discuss the matter. Locking the thread alleviates them of a voice.



I'd like to point everyone to this link.
D33P's post.
Yes there is a previous page, go back and read if you really want to.
The thing I'm pointing you to is D33P's post on the second page.
Most importantly, I'd like Z-Man, Tank Program, and Lucifer to read it carefully.

That is all.

[Phytotron]

1) I had no idea who Durf was prior to this, wasn't on my radar. But looking at his recent posts on this forum, that fasttrack forum, and stuff in-game, it's clear to me that yes, he is incredibly sexist and indeed misogynistic. It's not even close nor subtle. And I got news for you, kiddo, being an MRA does not make you anti-sexism; quite the opposite. It's clear you don't even understand what sexism actually is (same for racism, by the way). And all of that goes for your supporters as well.

Additionally, you have been and continue to be both hostile and antagonistic throughout this, though in the sly and phony "Mr. Reasonable Internet Guy" manner. You're no victim. Stop pretending. I'm also aware of some of the machinations you and your little buddies have been in involved with away from this forum.

2) Liz is a disingenuous, irredeemable sociopath, not simply a troll. Nothing she ever asserts or claims carries any credibility or sincerity whatsoever. Her behavior is inexcusable. However, that doesn't excuse the attitudes and actions that Durf and company have independently said and done, irrespective of whom it was directed toward.

Ironically, you all are just a continuation of what Liz, Taz, and that little crew were trying to accomplish back around 5 years ago. You're equally destructive to this community.

3) I don't agree with how Lucifer handled things, and have communicated this with him. It was an overreaction, and on the issues he has behaved like a silly caricature that only serves to reinforce what are otherwise usually nonsensical stereotypes about people who fight sexism and other forms of bigotry. In fact, there were a few bits that made me wonder about his own sincerity, whether this may be some elaborate troll on his part, because of that and because these are relatively new sentiments from him and in some respect run contrary to positions and attitudes he has expressed in years past. If it's not insincere, then it reminds me of the stereotypical college kid who just discovered communism and goes whole hog over the top silly about it. Either way, it was self-defeating the way it played out.

That isn't to say I believe he was, in principle, entirely in the wrong in most of his criticisms, including the one that initiated all this. But he was a dumbass about it.

4) Really, I tend toward thinking all this crap, all related threads and posts, should just plain be wiped from the forum, completely erased—including this thread. It's just a discombobulated mess of toxic waste. But I'm also interested to see what Z-Man and Tank come up with regarding this and some related stuff.

5) I don't give a damn about any of your stupid, trivial Ladle bullshit.

[Durf]

I have been around a while now (years). I've been posting mostly in this forum mostly additions made to my website and a few new server / game play ideas.

You are mistaken though. I was never actually sexist nor was I misogynistic.
If you wish to discuss the matter without filling these forums with garbage, let's PM or IRC.
Bring quotations of my own words so you can show how I'm sexist.
Like in D33P's post (on the other forum) he offers empirical evidence so that what he's saying can be made clear to ANYONE that reads it.
That being said, this thread isn't the place for that discussion.
Though I am quite surprised...did you take a look at the evidence?

Sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

I'm well aware what sexism is. I am not sexist nor do I think it is a joke. Continuously making unfounded claims that I am is an insult and can be considered trolling / harassment.
The definitions speak for themselves. It is discrimination based on sex and race respectively. BY DEFINITION, sexism and racism happens to ANY sex and ANY race. Not to be confused with genderism, also of which I am not. I simply do not discriminate for any reason whatsoever.

Consider for a moment that I'm not and have never been sexist. Do you still think it's not victimization?
If nothing I did warranted such responses (misinterpretations happen), then yes, I am a victim.
To be specific, that's exactly what I'm claiming. And D33P's post (check link in other post) is the empirical evidence to prove it.

I don't believe it's antagonistic to feel compelled to defend one's character and/or reputation.
Quite the contrary, I shouldn't have to. The fact that I'm the one that seems like the "reasonable" one should tell you that Lucifer (and others, like Vogue) are the ones that are unable to show they can be reasonable.

I'm also aware of all the machinations you and your little buddies have been in involved with away from this forum.

^ this is an assumption you've made. I had nothing to do with the spam or anything of the "bullshit" or "machinations" that resulted from my ban. I was banned, I couldn't post. Nor did I ever make an attempt to log in using a different name. (refer to the thread "why we use fake names" for my stance on "fake names")
Stop insulting me with such unfounded accusations.

Liz is a disingenuous, irredeemable sociopath, not simply a troll. Nothing she ever asserts or claims carries any credibility or sincerity whatsoever

Lucifer himself stated that Vogue was the main person to voice their opinion in regards to my alleged sexism. If Vogue has little to no credibility, then why does Lucifer not consider the possibility that Vogue was just trying to get me banned for disagreeing (and challenging) Vogue appeal for their ladle ban? (I'm not saying that's what happened, but assuming it did or didn't is still assuming)

You're equally destructive to this community.

I don't believe so as I have done things to help the community both in game and out. I have put in hours and hours trying to make things better in the ways I could. Calling me destructive....are you suggesting that I take down my website, resources, and servers? Do you wish for me to halt any and all production of what I'm doing? (including a cockpit editor)



Just because you don't like the thread, doesn't mean it should be locked, moved, or deleted.
If you don't want a part in it, don't post. Simple.
There are genuine people looking to discuss matters, and what may seem trivial to you is not to others.
That is an ignorant attitude to the existence of others (something Lucifer should agree with and support)


Though no one seems to allow the possibility that he may have been mistaken. (just like many to misinterpret my words, and the subsequent propaganda and quotes that were taken OUT OF CONTEXT).




If you are going to go out of your way to discredit someone and accuse them of something that even they themselves believe is wrong, then BRING EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.
If you can't show me and TEACH me how I was wrong, then I obviously won't learn.
But I'm here, and I've always been here, ASKING to be shown and taught.
If it can be proven that what I said was indeed sexist and misogynistic, then I'M PERFECTLY WILLING TO APOLOGIZE AND REFORM.

But I'm not just going to sit here and allow myself to be called names...
That is harassment. Stop it.
This isn't about winning, I don't see it that way.
I'm here to discuss and get to the bottom of the issue.
If I am the one who is mistaken, show me, I will accept it.
Without evidence, this is just prejudice. Frankly I put up with enough of this by now. Stop harassing me.

[Phytotron]

Arnold confounded.gif (1.32 MiB) Viewed 2526 times

Shaking my f*cking head. You are an amazingly deluded sea lion.

[Radiuks]

I thought that D33P's analysis was quite reasonable and addresses the issue at hand, which is the justification for Durf's ban. If Durf was banned for exhibiting sexist qualities, and if Durf did not truly show a form of sexism in his forum posts, then the ban would not be justified. D33P deduces, based on the sequence of events, that this ban is not justified and provides his reasoning for his conclusions. You, however, have not provided any reasoning for your conclusions. Instead, you insult the character of various members of the Fasttrack community, and you claim that we do not understand the meaning of the words "sexism" or "racism." I want to know, then, if we are even on the same page in these discussions. Please explain, if you would, what these words mean to you. Give a definition for each term. Since you claim that Durf is in the wrong, please show me examples of sexism in some of his posts. I want to understand.

[Phytotron]

FAQ: What is “sexism”?

Short definition: Sexism is both discrimination based on gender and the attitudes, stereotypes, and the cultural elements that promote this discrimination. Given the historical and continued imbalance of power, where men as a class are privileged over women as a class (see male privilege), an important, but often overlooked, part of the term is that sexism is prejudice plus power. Thus feminists reject the notion that women can be sexist towards men because women lack the institutional power that men have.

...

What I basically meant is that there are some people who get so caught up in feminist rights that they forgot that THEY ALREADY GOT THEM nearly a hundred years ago.

A giant pussy = a little bitch, someone who doesn't have the mental and/or physical capacity to deal with an ordinary discussion / debate; thus resorting to propaganda and irrational thought, basically bitching cus they can (in support of any sensitive topic = makes you seem like you're right...that's all the little bitch ever wants, to know he's right for once)

...but the point being made is about how when people become such huge vaginas...

Loaded with extra misogyny. Q.E.D.


No, I'm not going to debate any of this with you dogpiling clan boys; I hesitated responding this much. Now go back to your MRA caves and cry to each other about how the hot chick in school wouldn't automatically have sex with you after you showed her your pokemon collection and so men are oppressed, you tired little nerds.

[Word]

That cartoon is brilliant.

[dinobro]

You also said that men are better suited for a role of a doctor than any given female, care to elaborate why?

Also, you said that you question Vogue's gender becuase she doesn't fit your idea of "psychological disposition of a female". What is your idea of your "psychological disposition" of a female then? Do you believe people should fit into some kind of boxes you have prepared for them or either they are not who they say they are? Is someone less of a female is if they enjoy doing stuff that doesn't fit into your idea of "feminine" or don't get along with your imagination of how a female should behave?

Sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

But honestly, you don't have the psychological disposition of a female. Which is what made me question your gender in the first place.

You linked a definition of sexism right there, and try to argue that you are not. Yet, you said that yourself, that you questioned Vogue's gender becase SHE DIDN'T FIT YOUR IDEA OF A WOMAN. How is that not sexist?

So sure, you're defended by people, mostly because of certain bias towards Vogue or because they are as oblivious to the issue just as you are. The thing is, if not one, not two, but five or six people tell you that what you are saying is wrong, maybe you should make a step back and think about it for a bit before you, by default, assume that you are always right.

(Mind, I'm not going to ask you about other over-the-top broad statements you made, that mean "nothing and everything", like "Hitler had right idea but poor execution." as I don't think I really do want to know what you had in mind.)

[Z-Man]

This is only part of what is currently discussed internally. Please be patient and do not create further new topics at this time and ignore those others create. Thank you.