For lucifer.

[F0RC3]

I have no problem talking to you in public. I just figured you would be mature enough to read a response someone took their time typing in reply to you when the topic got locked. Especially since you told me to have fun. You reply wasn't necessary, i just wanted you to know that I wrote a reply like I said I would. I simply. wanted to pm you since the topic had been locked. I could have made another topic if I so chose to continue the argument, but I didn't. I chose to PM you instead. Truly not something Don't worry I won't pm you again, But i have no fear of talking to you in public. I'm not going to post what I said in my pm, as clearly you don't want to talk about it anymore.

Have a good night/morning sir.

[Vogue]

Yeah, everyone's aware of the fact that you're not scared of making a fool out of yourself in public. Don't worry.

Here's a beautiful quote by F0RC3, blast from the past:

and i find that many black are complete ******* ******. so thats why i'm racist.

[Lucifer]

I'm happy to talk about it. I simply don't want to be harassed in PMs.

And before you get all crazy talking about how YOU weren't harassing me, well, you won't understand. I've been harassed.

I don't expect a man who's never been catcalled to have any idea what it means to be harassed.

Here's your worthless PM.

Read it if you so choose. If not it doesn't matter. The topic is locked now, I just finished it right after it got locked though, so I didn't wish for my writing to go to waste. Anyways, thanks for the fun with the arguing. To be honest, I didn't see where durf said doctor's should be restricted to only men. It may not have been in the thread I read. It definitely seemed like he was aren't for sexism from what I read. Regardless I still don't think he deserved a ban for simply expressing his opinion.

Surrendering my male privilege means I have to shut the **** up? Lol no. I can express my opinions as much as I want. Women can express their opinions as much as they want. Whether or not they get heard, should not depend on their gender, but on the argument they make for their opinion. We shouldn't have to give up our right to speak, they have the right to speak as well, if they think they aren't being heard they should speak up. And you know what? They are being heard, That is why these things are such an issue right now. Because they are being heard, they are making their voice known. That doesn't mean men should stop expressing their opinions so that woman can express theirs. I don't view women's opinions as inferior, it seems your the one with that problem.

Thinking you can express your opinion as much as you want is NOT surrendering your male privilege, it is ENFORCING it.

As I said before, many women don't express their opinions because they've had entire lives full of conditioning that their opinions aren't important. It has been proven time and time again that in social situations, male voices prevail over female voices.

These are facts. Do you deny them? Do you really shut your mouth and listen to the women in your social groups?

Why is banning durf a small step towards achieving that? From what I can tell, practically everyone is against you. He was expressing his opinions, and if you thought him to be wrong than beat the shit out of his argument with your own. Don't ban him. Regardless of what he said, he expressed his opinions, and back them up. he wasn't threatening people or anything like that. I don't find a simple opinion is deserving of a ban.

From what I can see, there are roughly four people opposing me.

I DID beat the shit out of his argument with my own. He persisted, even to the point of PM'ing me more abusive shit.

He didn't have a "simple opinion". He casually stepped on every single woman that plays this game. He told each and every one of them that they can't be doctors, that they're better suited to other tasks. For someone who grows up a woman, that means, whether you like it or not, that they should be barefoot and pregnant.

Want an example? Google up "God made girls". It's a country song that expresses everything women learn.

While you're at it, watch Madonna's video for "What's it like for a girl".

I doubt you'll learn anything, though.

You think I'm being casually sexist? No, I am a human. I realize that i have faults. I realize that i think sexist thoughts, i think racist thoughts. However with the brain people can do this thing called controlling what they say or do, regardless of what they think. I realize I have racist and sexist thoughts, quite often. I even make jokes about them all the time, because simply put it is funny. However, that doesn't mean in deep thought I find it right to be racist or sexist. It is clearly wrong. If anyone is being casually sexist it is you. I have pointed out in several spots where you have been sexist towards men. You are so hypocritical, yet you don't even see it.

It's not hypocritical to give women a superior voice when the question is women's rights. Period.

You're a mechanic cool. Nice for you. I'm sure it involves plenty of heavy lifting. My aunt worked a jackhammer for many years, something a lot of the men didn't think she could do. But she did it. However she had to work significantly harder toward doing it. Most men are born with the ability to be stronger than most woman if they put in the same amount of effort, that is a simple fact. You cannot deny this.

I can do one better than you. This is a hormone controlled thing. Transgender men, after receiving hormones, go through a period of huge pain while their muscles rearrange themselves, to become stronger in the way that men are naturally stronger than women. It's a painful process, takes a lot of courage to see through, and people born with vaginas do it daily because they were supposed to be born boys.

It's all hormones. None of it is genetic.

Of course I feel oppressed in some things. Women have privilege over men in several things too you know, I have even provided an example of this. However the reason I said you are being the one sexist is because you are, and I have pointed out those situations. Being for women's rights does not mean you have to be sexist towards men. Of course in the process of women gaining equality men are going to lose some privilege, but in the same regard women are going to lose some of their privilege heading towards equality. Given up your male privilege? No. That is not what you have done. You hold women higher in regards to certain situations, you have said this yourself. What you have done is thrown away your male privilege and have become an advocate for matriarchy. You are telling me, a man to shut the **** up. Why because I am a man? If I was a woman, you would not be telling me to shutup. That right there is sexism sir.

Never in western history have men had to amend a constitution to gain the right to vote.

In other situations, when the issue was male-centered, I have told women to shut the **** up. For example, when I point out that 90% of divorces with kids have the woman getting the kid. Most of those are uncontested, but in the ones that are contested, 70% of the women still get the kids. I've told many a woman who had an opinion to shut her pie hole about it. It's clear discrimination, something YOU brought up.

And you miss the point. The REASON women win is because they are viewed as the "barefoot and pregnant" people. They're the ones who are expected to devote their live to their kids, while men are expected to be part-time parents.

Yes, it's an inequality that hurts men more than women. But the base of the inequality is STILL sexist. The reason this inequality exists is sexism.

Men are punished by sexism, as well.

Hell, look at school dress codes. This is an ongoing topic in my home. I have a daughter who just turned 15 who can't even fathom why the clothes she wears should distract boys from their work, because she thinks boys should focus on their work regardless of their surroundings. I wholeheartedly agree with her. Yet, she's the one who gets policed. That's what dress codes are.

I'm sorry for the spam, but it isn't related to me. Regardless of the side, the spammer needs to stop. It isn't my job to put a stop to the spamming. You're the moderator. Do your job and moderate the posts (though to be fair there are a lot of them, so I can't fully blame you.)

An argument that would be made by a spammer.

edit: Also this will be my last post for now. I'm off to run crota's end raid on destiny. I'll respond more afterwards though, if the topic isn't locked.

Have fun with that.

Gazelle: For all intents and purposes, just assume I have a hard-on for Liz. Since you put it that way.

Sadly, my raid fell through:(. Could only get 3 people of 6. So i came back to comment.

I can express my opinion as much as I want. Whether or not it gets heard should depends on whether or not I have a good argument for it. Just because I express my opinion, it doesn't mean I am enforcing it. I don't think women have had the problem of their opinions being conditioned as less important for many many years. Sure there may be some people that put women's opinion below men, but that doesn't mean that women are being conditioned for their opinions to be worse. I am 21. And for the entirety of my life, I have only heard encouraging things to both males and females, saying things like you can be whatever you want to be. Male voices simply do not prevail every time over female voices, sure this is currently a patriarchal society, but it is moving towards more equality and quite rapidly.

Social groups. I am quite anti social. I do not talk to very many women or men outside of my close group of friends (besides online), I am quite a shy person. But as long as the opinion is backed up by an argument that makes sense, sure I will listen to them regardless of gender (I will listen to them if they aren't spouting bullshit). Also, I have professors that are woman and hold their professional opinions in high regard, not because they are woman, but because they are professionals.

There are most definitely more than four people opposing you, even if they aren't vocal about it. Even still, I see less people arguing for your side.

I didn't see this beating the shit out of his argument. at least not in the thread that I read. And honestly if you were arguing at the same level as you are now, then I doubt you beat the shit out of anything. Please link me to it though.

What's hypocritical is that you actually told me to take my male privilege and shut the **** up. Sure we need to know woman's opinions on woman's rights I'm not saying that we don't need to know their opinions. But their opinions are from the inside of the oppression, outside opinions are also needed as those that are oppressed can over exaggerate what is being done to them. I went over this earlier, but you seem to have skimmed past this. The opinions of men and women should be held equally on the topic and the opinions that have the better argument should win. Really good ideas can come from men. Really good ideas can come from women. Just because a person is a woman should not give them more say, the quality of their argument for their opinion should. If you want more say, think of a good solution and argue for it regardless of gender.

Yes, it is controlled partly by hormones. Something we couldn't control that well until relatively recently. However even with hormones, there is only so much that can be done. Genetics can also be part of it, why do you say none of it is genetic? A person's genetics can have a relation to the amount of hormones released as well as genetic anomalies that give more muscle mass. And even then. Women still generally have smaller bodies than the average man and can result in less total muscle mass and therefore weaker. Also most women aren't going to be willing to pump their bodies full of hormones to increase muscular strength to the level of a mans. This is just an assumption, but I assume most woman don't find as much muscle mass as a muscular man has attractive on a woman (if they did, there would be more woman who looked like that). Also if they want to change who they are, that's fine. Doesn't change what they were born as biologically though.

Well I'm not going to look for a case of women having to be ammended to law to allow them to vote, because that would take an absurd amount of time. I'll counter with this. Most western civilization had some sort of king or queen established, a monarchy. The voting was rather limited, as much of the population was barred from voting (not only women). Anyways, that is the fault of patriarchal societies. There are still matriarchal societies in the east, however. And those societies give men very little power.

Oh wow, I'm surprised. You've told a woman to shut the **** up. It is obvious discrimination. Sexism. And a privilege to being a female. I'm glad you agree with me on that point now. Thanks. Women used to be viewed as only good for housework, sure. But it hasn't been like that for many years. I would say it's rather sexism against the stereotypical violent male father who can't breastfeed would be the reason why women win the children. Not because they are viewed as the pregnant ones. But because the males are viewed as unfit to raise them, or less fit than the woman. Which is clearly sexism.

Yup men are punished by sexism. Which means Women also have privilege on certain things. I hope you can see this, man aren't the only privileged ones (though they do have more in western society sure). Being equal would mean both sides losing their privelege and becoming equal. There will always be remnants, but eventually it will happen (unless the human race dies of course).

Okay you have a daughter that turned 15. That's cool. Dress codes exist because certain clothes can be distracting. Not just to males but also to females. It simply isn't appropriate to wear some clothes in school. Don't wear things that have drugs, alcohol, or sex on them. Don't wear clothes that show off too much of your skin, this goes for men as well. (at least it did at my high school, sports were excluded to allow for ease of movement. As long as the school approved clothes were used. For example wrestling uniforms, or track outfits). Too much skin can be distracting. People are typically attracted to other people (especially of the opposite sex), and clothes can be used to attract peoples attention very easily. Especially bright colored clothes (casino's use colors to attract peoples attention all the time) . For example, you might not want to where a reflecting yellow shirt in class, because it will probably flash in peoples eyes. I don't see the problem with dress codes as long as the reasoning is warranted (I don't know your daughters situation though, so it may or may not be warranted), and wearing too little clothing is definitely warranted to be in a dress code. Society no longer wears clothes to simply keep warm, except when it's cold. We wear them to hide or privates from those we do not want them to be seen by and to attract people. It is against the law to not wear clothes outside, it is considered indecent. As showing too much skin in school should be considered indecent. I had a situation like this in high school. A girl was blatantly cheating by writing stuff on her thigh, a black mark on not black things catch my attention even while I'm taking a test out of my peripheral vision. I wasn't looking at her because I thought her short shorts were attractive, but the color differentiation and the obviousness that she was cheating drew my attention. she would not have cheated if she wasn't wearing short jeans (which weren't disallowed depending on how long they were).

I don't spam. Look at my post count. I hardly ever post here. i only post when I feel like posting. Spamming takes up too much of my effort, and isn't fun for me. Anyways, you have no proof that I'm the spammer, nor will you ever obtain any. For I am not the spammer. Anyways, if you want to ban me for spamming, by all means go ahead if you truly believe it's me.

I tried to have fun with my raid, but no one wanted to fight the deathsinger. they just want to skip straight to crota:(. Thanks for wishing me a fun time.

[Lucifer]

Another PM exchange:

Well it's obvious you're not the kind of guy I thought you were. Have a good life, won't hear from me anymore in private and I don't want to hear anything else from you, please don't answer this pm.

I just went around the house and asked my mother and my sister if they felt persecuted institutionally and they said no. I don't know where you see the persecution because it doesn't exist in Europe anymore, I don't know about USA but here the ones that hold the power are women.

I'm in the USA, and, as I said before, my wife and younger daughter both saw the video he linked and read his comments and felt quite differently than your family obviously felt when they did the same things.

Also, my wife and I have noted several occasions at her job where she may have been discriminated against, but its so casual we can't prove it in court.

It's not a relatively small transgression, that's what you fail to understand. I've been reading the whole thing and her posts are filled with mental illness related bullshit. Why is it sexist more important than that? Mental illness transcends sex.

No. Mental illness affects like 30% of the population (I made that number up), but gender discrimination affects more than 50% of the population (I didn't make that number up).

You don't invalidate her point if you ban her for that reason, you make it clear that she's spot on about sexism but also she got caught with something just as bad. And her last post saying sorry doesn't mean shit to me. Some things aren't fixed just saying sorry.

I get that you don't believe her apology. I, however, do. And since I'm the moderator and you're not, you can do that math. I also have PMs to support my belief, and I won't share them because they're private.

I get that she talks a lot of shit. I really get that. In that way, she's absolutely no way different than me. Think about that. I may very well nominate her to take my place if this shitstorm gets that bad.

And no, Durf doesn't deserve a permanent ban. If phytotron, lizmatic and dev/null did not warrant one, he certainly doesn't.

I disagree. Phytotron, Lizmatic, and /dev/null haven't expressed the level of blatant woman-hating that Durf has. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Phytotron is clearly a feminist, and supports LGBT rights. LIzmatic is also clearly a feminist that supports LGBT rights. And, surprising though it may be to you, and I've known /dev/null a **** of a lot longer than you have, he's also a feminist and supports LGBT rights.

Durf is none of that. And it's not just "opinions" to be argued over the dining room table. He blatantly oppresses women when he points out they can't be doctors (a matter I discussed).

Durf is scum. He's evil. /dev/null is an attention whore. Durf is pure evil.

He's lucky I only gave him one day.

Considering the time *I* have personally wasted talking about this, I want to extend it.

I won't, because I"m not the asshole you accuse me of being.

But I'm an asshole, so go **** yourself. Or your fleshlight, or whatever consenting hole is convenient.

Make sure it's consenting!

Really, why do these exchanges have to be in PM? Aren't any of you ballsy enough to have these conversations out in public?

Jeez. I wear a skirt in public and get harassed, and you guys hide behind PMs. Worthless cowards.

[Gonzap]

Because cluttering the forums with this shit is tiring, and nobody wants to read this. If you know me at all, you would know I have no fears of discussing stuff in public.

Also where's the harrassing? I asked you if we could chat and you agreed, it's your ******* fault if you can't handle it. Just say you don't want to and be done with it.

Also where's the permission to post this? You told me you wouldn't post the pm's with lizmatic because they're private. Look how much of an hypocrite you are? I don't care that you posted those but you didn't even ask.

If you can do maths I think there's more than just 4 guys against you here.

[Lucifer]

Because cluttering the forums with this shit is tiring, and nobody wants to read this. If you know me at all, you would know I have no fears of discussing stuff in public.

Also where's the harrassing? I asked you if we could chat and you agreed, it's your ******* fault if you can't handle it. Just say you don't want to and be done with it.

Also where's the permission to post this? You told me you wouldn't post the pm's with lizmatic because they're private. Look how much of an hypocrite you are? I don't care that you posted those but you didn't even ask.

Are you really feeling butt-hurt because your privacy was violated?

Really?

Lest we forget, that's precisely what Durf tried to do to Vogue. He demanded she take pictures including her tits to prove that she's female.

And you're ok with that, you're defending that, and protesting that a simple PM of yours got put out in public?

Take a picture of your dick and post it. Prove you're a man. RIGHT NOW.

OR SHUT THE **** UP.

[F0RC3]

Ouch lucifer, so mean calling my pm worthless. Anyways, I told you what I wanted to tell you. And clearly we are ballsy enough. I don't know about Gonzap, but I was trying to respect you by not having the conversation filled with spam. Or if you wanted to simply end the conversation you could, by simply telling me nicely you don't wish to talk anymore. You should really calm down.

Yeah, everyone's aware of the fact that you're not scared of making a fool out of yourself in public. Don't worry.

Here's a beautiful quote by F0RC3, blast from the past:

and i find that many black are complete ******* ******. so thats why i'm racist.

Ouch, oh the pain. My soul. It hurts so much. Oh, the agony. Not something from a topic that happened four years ago,

[Gonzap]

I'm not defending that, if you paid any attention I typed that both should have an equal treatment and both get banned. For a day or whatever. For a "feminist" like you, you're clearly not equal at all.

One thing doesn't imply the other, you violated my privacy and everyone saw it. Durf said that in order to prove her gender she had to post a picture with a code, but that it wasn't necessary because gender doesn't matter. He didn't violate anyone's privacy, you just did.

[Tank Program]

Clearly, we have found Lucifer's hot button topic. Let's not continue to press the button, OK? Take a step back.

Lucifer, this is clearly something important to you. Please do not go where it looks like you're heading.

[Lucifer]

Ouch lucifer, so mean calling my pm worthless. Anyways, I told you what I wanted to tell you. And clearly we are ballsy enough.

Ballsy enough to gang up on me.

But not ballsy enough to admit your male privilege and step back.

That would take balls that, for the most part, only women have.

@Tank Program: I have always been a feminist, and I always will be.

[Lucifer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

This applies here.