Question for the Dev team (about money)

[Jip]

I think it would be usefull if a big amount of money is collected to a pot (with crowd funding e.g.) that would be enough to pay 1-2 developers for a couple of months.
But I think it's hard with such a small community.

[sinewav]

But I think it's hard with such a small community.

Exactly. With the current size, everyone would need to contribute hundreds of dollars just to get one developer on board. It's not impossible to grow the game, but it is hard to tell what the target demographic would be.

[Lucifer]

People can buy an open source game, no problem.

Yes, but there are additional problems for multiplayer games. For starters, all our infrastructure is GPL; it would be very hard to change that, so anything any non-paying customers want to do with it, they can. So let's be realistic here. If we restrict playing online to paying customers, the freeloaders would just create their own master server, and the free version would be vastly more popular than the payed version, so the threat "If you don't pay us, you can't play with the other paying customers" is not a very compelling one. It would rather turn itself around.

Well, we have to work *with* the GPL, not against it. I live in a city that bills itself as the Live Music Capitol of the World and hosts the annual South by Southwest festival (currently a film, music, and IT festival). It's not outside the realm of possibilities to get some starving bands to contribute music for a paid distribution. They would work to expand our community and we'd provide them international exposure. Likewise, people who already play the game that have time, but not money, might be willing to contribute music/artwork/etc for a paid distribution where the proceeds would go to fund development. Periodic paid tournaments, when there's money to offer a winner, become a possibility when someone has time to focus on running the damn thing.

On that note, semi on-topic: Someone mailed me asking for permission to do an Ouya/Android port. I said yes, no other choice, really. See GPL.

I got that email too. I ignored it figuring he can read the README and LICENSE like everybody else.

Starting with Z-Man, if you are willing to say, what is your day job?

I'm an automotive technician these days. I work 55+ hours a week and apparently make minimum wage most of the time. It's a commission job, but when the shop is slow, I get paid minimum wage for the hours I'm there. To buy me a day off, I'd need somewhere around $120/week. Because of how the shop works, that ends up possibly giving me a net gain in pay, too, since I'd pick days off that are expected to be slow and will stand a better chance of earning a commission check instead of an hourly check.

If we could get a developer to work full-time on the game, I think he/she should take a lead role rather than a codemonkey role. Yes, coding would happen, but also courting developers, leading discussions to lay out plans for features/fixes that can be delegated (sorta) to other developers, overseeing infrastructure (but not directly running it, because that could easily eat away all of his/her time), setting up and running tournaments, promoting the game, and here's the kicker: managing all efforts to make the game pay his/her salary. So, merchandising, special paid distributions, etc. Whatever comes to mind. Growing the audience is a big part of it. Fundraising drives, finding corporate sponsors, etc.

And when the revenue is high enough, take on other people to help with all of this stuff.

[Thump]

Ok so, I fail at math, would somebody like to put together an example equation including how many possible contributors + how much $$ they would need to contribute (from the current players/forums)in order to make a reasonable dent in the amount Dev team would need to make something positive happen? To see visually what needs to happen would help make it happen assuming it can.. happen.

Iv noticed from the feedback it seems Dev Team is still passionate about Arma, after all you haven't created a game.. you've created a 'way of life'.. It's true. So, I feel if there are any hopes of improving upon what we already have further.. It's going to take economic/financial strategy. I firmly believe however if you guys put together a doable game-plan.. you will have the communities full support, both in their available finances and even more, in their idea's/knowledge. Arma is full of some very bright minds. So, dont be discouraged.. I myself will help in any way I can. I tend to have a knack for marketing.

[delinquent]

A babysitter could give us enough breathing room so I could retreat to the PC pit for a while.

Sounds intriguing. Perhaps the way forward is a "Breathing room" fund, where the players can optionally contribute a small amount irregularly. Then, when there is enough, the devs use this on a rotational basis to fund the time needed to work on the game.

Hopefully, this would give at least one developer every month a day to work on the code itself. Whilst this seems a paltry amount, at least there would then be an update of sorts regularly.

All the time would have to be documented, plus what the fund was spent on, but to me it sounds pretty straightforward.

[sinewav]

And now I think back to 2020's idea of a micro payment tournament, a monthly revenue stream where participants pay a small entry fee to play. The winners get some prize money and the rest goes to the game. For example (not saying we should or could) I would definitely pay $1-5 per Ladle*, especially if I could break even or double my money at the end. If most people did that, we could generate a little more than beer money every month for Armagetron. This could cover some of the operating expenses, at least.

Then there is the idea (I think Luke-Jr proposed this once) of some sort of paid bug-hunting or feature writing. We could collectively discuss what features or bugs need to be worked on, have the devs bid on them, then the community could make that purchase. Does this make sense? My brain is frazzled right now.

These are both small scale ideas, but totally realistic given the size of Armagetron. Neither will put someone on payroll. However, it could stimulate the game.


*Costs less than a good beer at the bar and lasts longer!

[Lucifer]

Anybody ever order anything from these guys? They're reputedly way better than CafePress and they're definitely cheaper....

How about a series of collectible mugs that have all the default instant chats printed on them?

[Clutch]

Making teams pay for the Ladle will kill activity, especially among newer teams

[Thump]

How about a series of collectible mugs that have all the default instant chats printed on them?

That is a badass idea Luc. I'd totally buy some souvenirs!

Making teams pay for the Ladle will kill activity, especially among newer teams

I disagree. In fact, I think It will do a lot of good things. Sure If a team absolutely cannot front a full 6 man team they MIGHT opt out for that month, however, that could also cause a sense of urgency for team practices and actually being competitive! (This isnt to say nobody is being competitive, rather there is a dramatic sense of laziness lately..) Also, I think between a team comprised of more than 6 adult players. Getting them to muster up $10 as a team for ladle.. wouldnt be too hard, especially if they believe in the cause.

[Gazelle]

Why dont we all just look at this from an outsiders view, this is a game that is about 7-9 years old (cant exactly remember),its not easy on the eyes, the graphics arent the best, the gameplay can be kind of dull for stretches of time, and its very repetitive, i doubt anything we do is going to bring in an influx of new members or make this game become "big"... I look at this game as almost a game i would go to the arcade and play back in the day lol.. The game is good the way it is imo, there is no reason to make people pay for a ladle, or pay someone to improve the game.. seeing as its fine already.

I doubt Z-Man or any other "dev" can put an extensive amount of time in to help improve the game to make it somewhat presentable in todays age, they do have their lives they have to deal with before this "game"...

I dont know why we have discussed this as much as we have already.. Its kind of pointless, the way i see it, this is discussed every couple years, and we never get anywhere, we aren't going to get anywhere now.

[Thump]

I dont know why we have discussed this as much as we have already.. Its kind of pointless, the way i see it, this is discussed every couple years, and we never get anywhere, we aren't going to get anywhere now.

Comments like yours are the reason for that as well. The DEV's are big boys and they can openly state that if it's how they feel. What I have seen however from them, is genuine interest in the topic. They have not put this much effort and time into tron because they dont care about it.. on the contrary, they obviously have passion for their work. Also, I think many of the tron community are not 13yo kids anymore.. many are in fact adults who still play and enjoy Arma. Gaz if you do not feel it is worth your $5 a month.. Nobody will twist your arm? This topic is to generate interest in the "big picture" aka the long health of Arma. In fact.. I dont think we would even have to mandate any sort of Monthly or ladle fee, simply state it would be appreciated and all teams who contribute would receive a sort of acknowledgement. Would also receive an accounts report monthly of how much donations were generated and how the money is being spent.

[Gazelle]

Understandable, and im in no way, shape, or form, diminishing their accomplishments with this game, they have done an incredible job making a long lasting enjoyable game for the community, but i just dont see it going any farther, im just clearly stating my opinion.. I wouldnt mind paying, just saying i dont see how it could possibly flourish in todays age.

[Thump]

but i just dont see it going any farther, im just clearly stating my opinion.. I wouldnt mind paying, just saying i dont see how it could possibly flourish in todays age.

I appreciate your opinion as well! But, this is the very reason for the topic. I want to know WHAT (if any) improvements or benefits can be generated from this. If nothing, then so be it. Otherwise, if there really is nothing to gain as a community then.. there'd be no point.

[Lucifer]

but i just dont see it going any farther, im just clearly stating my opinion.. I wouldnt mind paying, just saying i dont see how it could possibly flourish in todays age.

I appreciate your opinion as well! But, this is the very reason for the topic. I want to know WHAT (if any) improvements or benefits can be generated from this. If nothing, then so be it. Otherwise, if there really is nothing to gain as a community then.. there'd be no point.

Gaz, when you mentioned it being similar to the old arcade games, do you remember how many quarters you pumped into them?

I think there's a lot of possibility to capitalize on the game without sacrificing the fundamental freedom philosophy embedded into everything about the game. I also think there are developers who would love to quit their current jobs and spend all their time on arma, besides me. The question isn't "if", it's "how do we make it happen"?

More players, and actually ways for them to spend money on the game.

[Fippmam]

I'm on board with Thump's idea for some sort of a monthly...I don't wanna say "donation," 'cause the money will be used to make the game better and whatnot.

It has to be voluntary of course, haha. If people are coerced into doing it (just so they get to play in selective tournaments, for example), things may go sour. Just my two cents though, and those haven't been worth much for almost 200 years.