Fortress-For-All - Discussion

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Ratchet
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Ratchet »

Thanks guys, I'm glad it seems to be a popular idea :)

@RandomTeamCaptains - I, like espy, think this would be a bad idea. If we assign random captains from the 72 players, we are likely to get someone who isn't very sure how fortress works, or someone that simply doesn't want to be a captain. This will do nothing but cause problems and negativity, when instead we can have someone who is passionate/willing to put a team together

Having informed captains all trying to choose the best possible team will make the competition field fairly equal. Especially using the draft system of 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, 1-12 etc.

@Bytes: I like that idea, but perhaps that's a bit harder to keep up with and limit when choosing teams. We want this to run smoothly, and I'm not sure if trying to keep track of everyone's clan is a realistic goal for this event. I'd like to think that the captains will have the integrity to pick from everyone to make it an enjoyable experience.

@Monkey: I am VERY impressed with you noticing those things. As for the time of team picking on Saturday, it has yet to be decided. I think that's something that needs to be discussed here, or maybe at a later date once the captains are signed up. Perhaps it doesn't have to be a solid time, but whatever works for all of the captains.

As far as it being winter times, it automatically updates depending on the month. I was curious about that as well, but I took the time chart from the Ladle page and noticed that the code for it automatically changes the time depending on the current date. When April 1st comes around, the times will automatically change themselves to summer time. Pretty cool, huh?

@Venijn: I understand what you're saying. Like I said for Bytes, I'm not really sure if there's an effective way to limit players to 2 from clan per team aside from just asking the captains to pick from everyone. The picking system will be as follows: 12 Captains sign up. On draft day, I will randomize the captains giving them a number 1-12, and have the picks run as stated previously. The captain assigned #1 will have the 1st and 24th pick, #2 will have the 2nd and 23rd pick, etc. This is the same method the NFL uses ( and perhaps some other sports as well ) to maximize the distribution of players and talent. Essentially, captains pick one at a time in a specified order, just like you said.

As for captains not showing up, I'm still organizing things around. But, there is a Frequently Asked Questions page right here for now. That information is located there. In essence, if a captain doesn't show up to the DRAFT, another player will be asked to step up as captain. (At this point, I will most likely resort to self-choosing a player and asking someone to do it). If a captain shows up to the DRAFT, but not on game day, the result and procedure can be found on the FAQ that I linked you to.


@0000:
That's an idea. Perhaps have the captains sign up and have their teams chosen for them. It could work, and it may, provided Player 1 and Player 2 aren't *accidentally* teamed up together, and they hate each others' guts. And then Captain, Player 1, decides that instead of center like Player 2 wants, he will play defense. Yaknow what I mean? Sine suggested that *all* bias be removed from the tournament and have it purely based off of the wants of the individuals playing. I think that it can work as intended, as long as it's done right.

And, maybe purely letting the people decide isn't the best idea. Who knows. Maybe it'd be better to assign players to a Captain's team and let that Captain work with what he is given. That's why we have roughly 2 months to plan it out and discuss it. These things need to be debated and the *most* wanted system implemented. :)

@Thump: I like that, what you and Zero suggest, and maybe that would be a more effective method. I'm not entirely sure, and we still have plenty of time to see what route would be the most efficient and competitive. It could work, but I'm not sure if that is necessarily *better* than allowing Captains to formulate their own teams, assuming we have good Captains.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Cody »

So this is basically like a pick-up Ladle lol'd

Now every FFA will there be 12 new captains & 12 new teams? cause I just see this as "one FFA team wins, then keeps inviting back the same players each and every FFA*

Wouldn't the teams start looking a bit organized by the 5th FFA tournament?

Also keep in mind, the only thing this tournament is offering thats different from ladle, is the Draft for teams. So basically this is like 12 Open teams in ladle.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Ratchet »

Cody wrote:So this is basically like a pick-up Ladle lol'd

Now every FFA will there be 12 new captains & 12 new teams? cause I just see this as "one FFA team wins, then keeps inviting back the same players each and every FFA*

Wouldn't the teams start looking a bit organized by the 5th FFA tournament?

Also keep in mind, the only thing this tournament is offering thats different from ladle, is the Draft for teams. So basically this is like 12 Open teams in ladle.
12 new Captains would merit 12 new teams, yes. Plus, I highly doubt the same 72 people will be available for both tournaments. If it is organized enough to allow 2/4 more teams, that is also a possibility. With enough interest this could fit *most* of the Fortress players (minimizing the spectators). The current one is more or less a "guinea pig" version of it to see how smoothly it can operate.

It is like 12 open teams in the Ladle, I'm proud of you :D

EDIT: Also, due to the random nature of picks the FFA team that wins this time will most-likely be the sought after players of the next one (if they sign up). I doubt the new Captains will let that team be chosen again because they'd want those players next time.
Last edited by Ratchet on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Cody »

Ratchet wrote:
Cody wrote:So this is basically like a pick-up Ladle lol'd

Now every FFA will there be 12 new captains & 12 new teams? cause I just see this as "one FFA team wins, then keeps inviting back the same players each and every FFA*

Wouldn't the teams start looking a bit organized by the 5th FFA tournament?

Also keep in mind, the only thing this tournament is offering thats different from ladle, is the Draft for teams. So basically this is like 12 Open teams in ladle.
12 new Captains would merit 12 new teams, yes. Plus, I highly doubt the same 72 people will be available for both tournaments. If it is organized enough to allow 2/4 more teams, that is also a possibility. With enough interest this could fit *most* of the Fortress players (minimizing the spectators). The current one is more or less a "guinea pig" version of it to see how smoothly it can operate.

It is like 12 open teams in the Ladle, I'm proud of you :D
Also, how are you going to decide who gets the ~Bye~ in the first round for the first tournament?
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Ratchet »

It will be decided at random, via Kyle's !random bot. The Captains' teams will be numbered in the order of their picks (Captain who has the 6th player pick will be team 6) for the sake of randomizing the brackets, and then the teams will be allowed to choose a name to replace their wiki/bracket naming.

Visual Explanation of how team choosing works
Assume these are the 12 Captains. (This is NOT the order they signed up in. After signing up they will be randomly assigned a number and then put into numerical order as shown below.)

Ratchet 1
Cody 2
Zimbabwe 3
Toby 4
Fippmam 5
Zero 6
Kyle 7
Liz 8
Gonzap 9
Concord 10
Vov 11
Soul 12

The picks would be as follows:

Ratchet 1, 24, 25, 48, 49
Cody 2, 23, 26, 47, 50
Zimbabwe 3, 22, 27, 46, 51
Toby 4, 21, 28, 45, 52
Fippmam 5, 20, 29, 44, 53
Zero 6, 19, 30, 43, 54
Kyle 7, 18, 31, 42, 55
Liz 8, 17, 32, 41, 56
Gonzap 9, 16, 33, 40, 57
Concord 10, 15, 34, 39, 58
Vov 11, 14, 35, 38, 59
Soul 12, 13, 36, 37, 60

Team names on wiki would be:
(The Captains will be asked for an alternative name for their team to be renamed after the brackets have been made.)

Ratchet 1
Cody 2
Zimbabwe 3
Toby 4
Fippmam 5
Zero 6
Kyle 7
Liz 8
Gonzap 9
Concord 10
Vov 11
Soul 12

The number by each player's team will be put into a bracket randomizer, and the appropriate team names put into place. There is no guaranteed "Seeding" for the next tournament because there is no guarantee that the same Captain(s) will sign up. Or, I could even specifically ask for new Captains so everyone can get the opportunity. There's still plenty of room for improvement.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Concord »

defending champions: 1200, Concord, sebol158, sinewav, tyler, and Xyron

it should be noted that Xyron sucked in january 2009 :D Sebol was the best player on this team.
as much it as possible, it would be nice if the champs could get a chance to defend their title. At least 4 of these players are still active.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by 0000 »

I understand where you are going with this, but that draft order isn't entirely fair. The team with first pick not only gets the best player in the draft, but they also get to avoid picking the bottom 11 players in the draft since they get first pick in the last round as well.

Try letting them get first pick in the 1st and 3rd rounds and last pick in rounds 2, 4 and 5.

Also, the captains should be relatively equal in skill level. A team with Vov as captain has a huge advantage over a team with a bottom-tier player as captain before the draft even starts.

A final option would be to rank the captains in skill level and have the top player pick last. Then it would be fair to go back to using ratchet's draft order.

Sorry to get so technical, but getting balanced teams will make this much more fun.

Or we could just use the committee method of balancing teams and not have to worry about any of this. ;)
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Ratchet »

@Concord: I don't think that would be very fair :P Try signing up for captain and making it happen!

@Zero: Perhaps I could set that up, switching the order for the last row.

And again, I can't control who signs up for Captain, but I also don't want to tell someone that wants to be captain that they can't. Therefore, everyone must have the ability to sign up, and as a community we need to ask that the most fit people sign up to keep the competition high.

It would be "biased" to rank in terms of skill level because there are too many factors that play into "skillful", and who I think is #1 may be #3 to someone else. Etc. The underlying fact is, things have to be systematic if we want this to be reproduced for future tournaments. Anything we do this time I intend to set a structure for the next, and frankly I may not always be able to organize this when I'm in college next semester. A good foundation for this will allow someone else to set it up with much more ease for the next time.

@Proposed orders

Ratchet 1, 24, 25, 48, 60
Cody 2, 23, 26, 47, 59
Zimbabwe 3, 22, 27, 46, 58
Toby 4, 21, 28, 45, 57
Fippmam 5, 20, 29, 44, 56
Zero 6, 19, 30, 43, 55
Kyle 7, 18, 31, 42, 54
Liz 8, 17, 32, 41, 53
Gonzap 9, 16, 33, 40, 52
Concord 10, 15, 34, 39, 51
Vov 11, 14, 35, 38, 50
Soul 12, 13, 36, 37, 49

And I much prefer that order, Zero. This order makes the Average Pick Number for team 1 = 31.6 and team 12 = 29.4. This means that the latter teams have a *slightly* improved average pick to level out for having the 12th pick.

Previously, it was the opposite. Team 1 had an APN of 29.4 and Team 12 had an APN of 31.6
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by 0000 »

That is all understandable. The picking order is a good improvement. One thing that the "average pick" doesn't show is that the variance in skill is much higher at the top and bottom of the list, so that new order helps even the teams out more than it may seem.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Concord »

the picking order is an improvement, but it's still bad. The mean is less meaningful than the median for this application. The teams with later picks should at least have better medians. Right now three of the 12th team's picks come after 36, (meaning half the team comes from the bottom 40% of the player pool, and none from the top 18%) and 3 of the 1st teams picks come before 25 (half the team is in the top 40%). This means that the "better" average is solely accomplished by having better picks among the worse players, 36-60. The value of picking first in a round decrease as the round number gets higher, so the fairness should be weighted to the front of the draft at the cost of the back. A better order is giving the 12th team the first pick in both the 2nd and 3rd rounds, and the last pick of the 4th and 5th rounds.

The order then is:
1st round: 1-12
2nd round: 12-1
3rd round: 12-1
4th round: 1-12
5th round: 1-12.

The 12th team has the best median, which is the fairest allocation, since they lose out on the 11 best players.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by 0000 »

I would argue that the order in the final round could be even more important than the first round depending on the player pool. An inexperienced player has the potential to do more harm than an all-star can make up for. But the proposed picking order takes that into account about as good as can be expected.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Thump »

Let's be realistic here: What are the odds we have several legitimately NOOB players join up? Most players somewhat interested in this will have some fortress experience. That said, the teams with the least amount of combined skill could still be an upset to the competition. So, if the picking order is even SOMEWHAT fair I would not be surprised to see even match-up's across the board.

Another Thought: Allow those players who would like to join but who are not 100% confident in their skill to benefit the team, to be able to make note of it, those players can be worked with by some of the more pro players until competition time, or we could use their honesty to help place them in a team. Otherwise, most entries will be confident in their ability and let the cards lay where they may.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Concord »

Thump wrote:Let's be realistic here
to be very realistic, we should acknowledge two other things as well: the most "unfairness" will come from the differing skill levels of whoever the captains are, and any draft order will be affected by the fact that no one has anything other than a vague idea of who is better than who at fortress.
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Ratchet »

Concord wrote:
Thump wrote:Let's be realistic here
to be very realistic, we should acknowledge two other things as well: the most "unfairness" will come from the differing skill levels of whoever the captains are, and any draft order will be affected by the fact that no one has anything other than a vague idea of who is better than who at fortress.
In all honesty, there is no flawless way to ensure every team is at maximum equality. We could hand-pick Captains and teams to TRY and make it even, but at that point the whole concept of the tournament is really destroyed. I believe in the sign-up-as-you-wish concept, and let those Captains draft their teams. I don't think that concept is going to change. However, I do think

1st round: 1-12
2nd round: 12-1
3rd round: 12-1
4th round: 1-12
5th round: 1-12.

is a pretty good idea. But how about even making the last round 12-1?
Otherwise, the 12th team will have both the 12th best player and the very worst player. By making the last round 12-1, the first team will have the "best" player, but also the "worst" player.
Doesn't that seem fair?

That will bring the draft order to this:

"Captain #1" 1, 24, 36, 37, 60 APN: 31.6
"Captain #2" 2, 23, 35, 38, 59
"Captain #3" 3, 22, 34, 39, 58
"Captain #4" 4, 21, 33, 40, 57
"Captain #5" 5, 20, 32, 41, 56
"Captain #6" 6, 19, 31, 42, 55
"Captain #7" 7, 18, 30, 43, 54
"Captain #8" 8, 17, 29, 44, 53
"Captain #9" 9, 16, 28, 45, 52
"Captain #10" 10, 15, 27, 46, 51
"Captain #11" 11, 14, 26, 47, 50
"Captain #12" 12, 13, 25, 48, 49 APN: 29.4
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Re: Fortress-For-All - Discussion

Post by Thump »

Im not even the least bit against any suggestions thus far. But, as I read replies and think about the tourny, idea's keep coming. So, this is probably my final take on any suggestion(s).

There is some sort of an exciting factor about finding out who you're teammates are going to be.. Randomly! Throw all the names of the participants in a hat, pull them out one by one till you have 7: Team 1.. And so on, then.. everyone gets to show up to a the brackets and see who they're with! The reason I think this is cool; IF we are to try and (eventually) make this a regular tourny, the more simplistic the better. Volunteer captains.. all getting together at said time.. organizing the Picks.. Is probably going to be very time consuming and has a lot of room for error. My suggestion for Randomizing it really leaves no room for error (assuming 6 members of each team show up to play). IF everyone thinks the pickup style selection will work with this many people.. we certainly can try though. BTW we could always toss a few suggestions up in the Poll section and get a vote.. ? /me shrugs
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