Fortress & Sumo United (FSU)

[Vogue]

If something similar like that happened to some teams and they're like "wow that's not cool, we won't play them anymore" then that's their decision, not saying anyone should do something, just that clan alliances don't need a commitee to get shit done. Also, I'm talking about stuff that actually happened and is proven, unlike those unproven accusations of yours.

kisses

[sinewav]

So you'd shun that team purely based on what two players did? I suppose that means uNk should be shunned now after your faking of Judders and [unsubstantiated claim] then..right?

Yes, that's how it might work if the FSU existed. The FSU would put pressure on uNk to expel Vogue or risk having the whole team excluded from events. Now, if Vogue was the leader of the team, an impeachment might be in order so the team could survive. See how this works? It has the potential to be a highly successful system.

The implementation process would involve a period of minor fragmentation. The community would have normal events where everyone could play and FSU sponsored events with player/team restrictions. If the FSU grew large enough, it would naturally overtake all the major events like Ladle, WST, SBT, etc.

The FSU might be compared to how the Ladle itself is organized. Ladle rules are based on sportsmanship. You would think these rules were obvious, but no, we have to spell them out on the wiki and keep an eye on each other. It's not that far a stretch to have an Armagetron "Code of Conduct" stretching across events spelled out somewhere and ask everyone participating to follow it. The difference would be that the FSU actually has some sort of power and, if large enough, could be very effective at promoting good behavior.

Heh, I'm starting to imagine event sign-ups with the disclaimer "By signing up your team you agree to follow the FSU Code of Conduct." similar to the disclaimer on the Ladle Challenge Board.

I would not be quick to dismiss the FSU as fantasy. The majority of the players here already follow this code of conduct unconsciously so adopting the FSU policy would be nothing to them. They just want to play.

[Word]

OK, then I'd say the people who have an interest in banning uNk/Vogue/pyrrhic (Soul, woof) should step forward and get an admin who can confirm through the IPs that they actually appear on those screenshots. Speak now or forever hold your peace, unless you want this to remain nothing but an unfinished werewolf game.

[sinewav]

Word, now YOU are causing drama.

Let me go back and explain how I think the FSU might realistically come into being. First, there needs to be statement about what the FSU is, it's structure, and it's reach. Realistically, this doesn't require much more than a single wiki page. Second, there needs to be participation in this group. How much participation will determine how successful the next step is. Third, the FSU must gain a foothold on various Fort/Sumo events. If the FSU is large enough, then a FSU boycott would cause the event to collapse. If it's not large enough, the boycott might only damage the event, which might make undecided parties consider joining or leaving the FSU. The FSU could also have concurrent events. The players will ultimately decide which is more important. (For example, players actually left the CTF Brawl finals for a chance to participate in the SBT. In my opinion, that was a huge blow to the CTF community and I question whether it can recover from it's current unpopularity.) Strength in numbers, you know.

EDIT: A FSU boycott would be the hardest part to follow through on. All FSU members need to be committed. But even a small number of teams could wreck an event with a boycott. Imagine if 3 or 4 of the best Lade teams simply said "no thank you" one month. Wouldn't the winners of that Ladle feel a little cheated winning a Ladle with considerably less teams and competition? It works the other way too. A large number of not-so-good teams could have a similar impact.

It seems to me that, given the amount of work involved in setting the FSU up, the long-term benefits would be fantastic.

[Soul]

It's like the Roger Clemons case, everyone close to the situation knows they did it, but they won't admit to it. XD Everyone knows what happened, and to those who deny it, an admin verification most likely change their view.

As for this FSU thing, aside from the being extremely hypocritical (as to who is making it), the main problem I can foresee as of now is not enough people/clans wanting to be apart of it.

EDIT: Also just had a question to sine. I noticed you added "unsubstantiated claim" to wolf's post. While this may or may not be true, why didn't you do the same to liz's accusation? If anything, wolf's has more evidence.

[Vogue]

Accusation? It was merely an example of a situation, you guys are blowing this out of proportion.

I'd love for an admin to prove I was Judders, won't happen tho, all you have is some fake screenshots. Oh yeah, I was logged in as Judders under Vogue@mym? Brok3n hacked that account, nice job on trying to frame me. Not.

[Soul]

Yeah and you hacked my account! Haha, what a joke.

Please stay on topic or leave.

[Fippmam]

Soul: You weren't on topic either.

Anyway this is going to involve lots of trial and error. People will abuse loopholes and until those are found, it'll be like the early days of ladle where people didn't follow rules that as Sine said, seemed "obvious."

I don't see this really kicking off at any moment, but when/if it does, it'll be a learning experience for the entire community.

BTW some sort of statute of limitation notion would have to be implemented. It'd be odd if this community could punish people like codehunter for something that happened years ago, or brok3n, for something that happened almost a year ago. Wouldn't it? Just throwing stuff out there.

Then there's the issue of what to do when the accused is the leader. One of two things could happen: Leader steps down like brok3n did, or leader gets impeached. I think it works out rather well, and if a team refuses to dethrone their leader, they can collectively be punished, for aiding and abetting.

[Word]

Word, now YOU are causing drama.

I think you misunderstood the intention of my post. All I'm saying is Vogue and the others shouldn't be blamed unless it's totally proven what they did. 'In dubio pro reo' for them as long as there's no believable proof and 'practice what you preach' for the FSU if there is. Titan probably joked, but if the FSU is worth anything why should the very team that tried to establish it the most (next to SP) be an exception from its very own rules and standards when they have violated it (this is not to say that they already have)? Clear up what happened, then act accordingly instead of accusing one another for 4 more pages and on the grid. Vogue and Soul seem confident, pyrrhic and Broken haven't commented yet. Maybe the admin even reveals that it was someone completely different.

[Ratchet]

@Sine: you are suggesting a boycott of events in order to get people to "sign up" for this "committee". I really think that would finish demolishing the interest of fort in the minds of newcomers.

@General:

"Hey, come play fort! The only place in tron with *RULES!* that can prevent you from having fun in the future!" Generally, we shun away new players because of our self-governing rules that outsiders think are ludicrous. I think the way the ladle and other events work today is very effective. Someone complained about aliased teams in the past, looking back at the last several ladles no one has played using any sort of alias.

I believe problems can be worked out with the community just by bringing it up and talking about it with everyone. I don't think we need to weed out representatives to tell specific people that they can't be in a clan this or that they can't play in the ladle that. People will most likely just create new identities anyways.

Player "stealing" has always been a problem. It's somewhat the equivalent of soldiers or special agents succumbing to other governments and spilling out information. It's in human nature. We always want something better and someone is always going to offer us something that we think is better than what we have. People are granted that right, naturally, and can make their own decisions. Their reputation is affected by that. So what if we have a few bad apples, every gaming community does. The simple fact is, put in the time to be better than them and they will not only have a bad reputation, but they won't be sought after because other players are better than them and don't have the "baggage" that they do.

RoadRunnerZ, a recently up-and-coming clan, does not have a single "liz" or "Gazelle" (insert random "hated" person here) in their clan. They don't recruit based on skill. They recruit based on personality and they teach their players how to use a strategy to win a fortress game. That's what we need, not some silly set of biased assholes on a pedestal running the entire fortress community.

[sinewav]

EDIT: Also just had a question to sine. I noticed you added "unsubstantiated claim" to wolf's post. While this may or may not be true, why didn't you do the same to liz's accusation? If anything, wolf's has more evidence.

Because I was quoting woof and responding to him, not Vogue. I don't even read half her posts.

I think you misunderstood the intention of my post.

No, I understand it, but I think it derails the topic. There is some good discussion here. Obviously, any acts of hypocrisy would cause the FSU to crumble (it goes against the spirit of the organization), so I wouldn't even worry about it.

@Sine: you are suggesting a boycott of events in order to get people to "sign up" for this "committee". I really think that would finish demolishing the interest of fort in the minds of newcomers.

No, newcomers are always welcome, but under the Code of Conduct -- just like newcomers are free to play Ladle as long as they follow the rules. The only difference if you can be expelled from the FSU. You can't be expelled from Ladle.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no shortage of new players in Fortress. Just look at the Challenge Board for proof. The Ladle has shrunk in size because the Arma community itself is smaller, but the percentage of new and old players in Fortress has been steady.

I believe problems can be worked out with the community just by bringing it up and talking about it with everyone.

This is exactly what we are doing now. This is the reason the FSU has been proposed. This is us talking it out with everyone and coming up with a solution, got it?

The rest of your post is nonsense. You can claim something is "human nature" but it is foolish to just throw your hands up and say "oh well!" as if it is unchangeable. Human nature is changeable. That's why we don't have slaves anymore. It used to be taken for granted that people owned other people. Culture is mutable. Gaming communities are mutable.

[Zenith]

Lol calm down everybdy

[Word]

Obviously, any acts of hypocrisy would cause the FSU to crumble (it goes against the spirit of the organization), so I wouldn't even worry about it.

Well, it could also be the first time the FSU really shows its strength. If the FSU crumbles whenever something like this happens, why have it? I suppose I'm the one who doesn't understand what the topic is currently about and what I'm distracting from. It seems to me we only talk about how bad cyber-bullying is, how Soul and woof need to get a thicker skin, but it also stands out to me that nobody except them asks for sanctions now, with or without FSU, but everyone seems to tolerate the real drama (or isn't it?), that now both sides have a way to accuse one another forever, probably causing more such issues in the future. That's why I'm saying solve it now or forget it. I don't know about Vogue and pyrrhic, but most people who have been accused like that have an interest in defending themselves, too. If it turns out to be Liz, it's deserved; and if it is someone else, it's deserved too - but then the victims don't rely on a scapegoat (though most will agree that neither the Rders nor Liz are completely innocent).

[Fippmam]

Make a separate thread about the tg conspiracy then. It doesn't belong in this thread Word. It just steers people away from the topic at hand, which is the FSU.

[sinewav]

Yes, what Fippmam said.

If the FSU crumbles whenever something like this happens, why have it?

Word, the FSU doesn't even exist. We have no idea if it would work, but there is no harm in trying. Committee structures work well in many situations, especially in professional sports. It is worth considering it here. If it doesn't work then it gets abandoned. If it does work, the community benefits. To those who don't like the idea, don't join the FSU. From a practical standpoint, the FSU wouldn't be any different than participating in an event with strict authorities where the white-list is generated from a central @somewhere. The FSU should also cut down on the ridiculous drama threads here, were outraged parties scream "something should be done!" -- but nothing ever gets done and we reach 10 or more pages before the same crap happens a few months later.