The worst things that have ever been written

[compguygene]

After watching Word struggle with this I would like to step in and help. I am not going to try to prove the bible true or not, that is really irrelevant to the argument at hand This has really become a debate about the fundamentals of Philosophy, Religion, and Science. What we need to understand is the difference between the Christian viewpoint on this and the Atheist viewpoint. In the rest of this post I will attempt to present the fundamental differences.

Christian approach to Philosophy, Religion, and Science:

In philosophy one starts with the definition of ones metaphysics. As Christians hold a firm belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, the metaphysics are defined by that. To the Christian, if one were to draw a series of circles, one inside the other, with the most accurate truth in the center circle, Theology would be at the center. Philosophy would be in the next most outer circle, and Science would be at the outermost circle.

Atheist approach to Philosophy, Religion, and Science:

In philosophy one starts with the evidence presented by science to then reason out one's metaphysics. To the Atheist, if one were to draw a series of circles, one inside the other, with the most accurate truth in the center circle, Science would be at the center. Philosophy would be in the next most outer circle, and Religion would be at the outermost circle.

So, from the Christian viewpoint, Atheists are wrong for not starting with metaphysics. From the Atheist viewpoint, Christians are wrong for not starting with Science.
I tire of watching these rather pointless debates where both sides must try to prove the other wrong. There is no way that I, as a Christian can prove my belief right to an Atheist. Conversely, there is no way that an Atheist can prove their lack of belief right to me.

Can't we just agree to disagree and move on?

[kyle]

Why do't we get off of the religious stuff and onto what truely is the worst thing written, windows!

[Jonathan]

Atheist approach to Philosophy, Religion, and Science:

In philosophy one starts with the evidence presented by science to then reason out one's metaphysics. To the Atheist, if one were to draw a series of circles, one inside the other, with the most accurate truth in the center circle, Science would be at the center. Philosophy would be in the next most outer circle, and Religion would be at the outermost circle.

I don't think that's entirely true for most of us 'convinced atheists'. Philosophy can lead to some interesting ideas, but doesn't have any truth value by itself. Say, the idea that the world consists of atoms has been around for a while, but it wasn't any better than the opposite idea until it was proven by observation.

When it comes to truthfulness of the raw ideas, religion is really about on par with philosophy (before too many ideas are built on top of other ideas). The difference is that religion asserts its own truthfulness and doesn't know to stop fantasizing, even as it is proven wrong. That makes religion a pervasive source of demonstrable falsehoods and other silliness.

Can't we just agree to disagree and move on?

NOWAI! Nevah! Well, I don't have the energy to do this continuously (you can probably tell by the number of avenues of attack that I have ignored), but when the thread flares up again I can add a few remarks.

Why do't we get off of the religious stuff and onto what truely is the worst thing written, windows!

Not until people believe they will meet their deceased files, made better than they've ever been, in Teletubbyland! People of the XPist sect, at least.

[sinewav]

Religious debates are not pointless by any means. In fact, it is this type of discourse that helps people who are open minded to flush out their own personal beliefs. I was a hardcore Christian at one time, so I understand the value of this debate. I lived in a sheltered world where I wasn't exposed to other ideas, so when I was finally introduced to "the debate," it was enlightening. I don't engage in this stuff to convince Word or gene, I do it to expose the other readers whose opinions aren't so rigid.


Also Windows is awesome. The other day my roommate found an old Pentium II 400 Mhz laptop in his storage unit and said "hey want to play with this?" I said "hell yeah!" Last night I loaded up Win98SE and I cried like seeing an old friend I lost touch with. It was beautiful. You know, I've been writing music with computers since Win95 so having this resource is a way for me to go back to those old files and remix my old tunes. LEGACY, man.

[Lucifer]

Lucky you, Sinewav. I initiated the debate in my town with absolutely no idea what I was doing.

Compguygene: You consistently oversimplify and inaccurately describe any sort of atheistic viewpoint that you should just quit trying. Atheists are like assholes, everyone is different. As a matter of fact, atheists are assholes, because the one way in which they are the same is that they reject one more god's existence than you reject. You reject all the others except yours, which we atheists do (making us 99.99999% in agreement on religion), and we reject yours too. Which you don't. Which is perplexing.

I'm with Jonathan, the primary point where philosophy and religion diverges is that philosophy really *is* a science in that it's peer reviewed, and bad ideas are flushed out when proven to be bad ideas. It's still a bit of a pseudo-science in that it doesn't meet the wonderful definition that Jonathan quoted for science, but it is every bit as useful as you claim religion to be, and it also adjusts itself to facts and new research. So it's even MORE useful than religion, because it STAYS UP TO DATE.

Also, atheists as a group may rely on science, but there are many individuals who don't give a **** about science either. They just don't want to be bothered with all the hate and destruction that EVERY SINGLE RELIGION beckons them to feel and enact.

The thing about religion is that it's vast and empty. It's kinda like space.

Anyway, through the process of natural selection and NOT the process of religious indoctrination, we have evolved a species that values the love of all over the love of gods. That can be seen not only by how many people turn away from the church, but also by how many people try to redefine the church's purpose in a loving light.

So, really, Compguygene and Word, y'all are just one step away from being atheists. Throw away your invisible friend, reject him as you do ALL OTHER GODS and you'll be atheists. There's nothing stopping you, and no sensible reason keeping you where you're at. Can you even imagine what it's like to live a life where you have no guaranteed afterlife of any kind, be it torture or pleasure? Can you even consider the idea that THIS IS IT, YOUR ONE CHANCE AT LIFE? Can you do that?

[compguygene]

I oversimplify Atheism just as you do with any theism, agreed. You can pick apart my post like always, but my point remains. We have 2 very different views on these issues. Theists, and in particular Christians use one particular approach. Atheists do not start with metaphysics in their definitions of Science, Philosophy, and Religion. Atheists start with either Science or Philosopy. Whatever. My point that we have a diametrically opposed approach to our definition of things still holds. It holds no matter the diversity of the Atheistic view no matter how complex.
I find it most amusing that I am not trying to convert you to my viewpoint, but you certainly persist in attempting to convert me to yours. Of course, you have the right to push that as far as you wish, it truly is up to you. I can only reply that where you see no evidence or need for some invisible "God thingy", I, and others like me do. That same "God thingy" calls me to respect your viewpoint, and love you unconditionally.

[sinewav]

That same "God thingy" calls me to respect your viewpoint, and love you unconditionally.

Did you ever stop to think that you love others because that's what a normal human being does? I wouldn't take any calls from someone to love others while they simultaneously call others into hate.

[þsy]

First two minutes are Zizek on love - seems relevant, may be of interest to some
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 0jxclqEJD8

Edit: To add my own input to the discussion - I think fixed categories of Christian/Non-Christian are too broad for serious consideration, which is why this discussion feels pretty fruitless (I, for one, don't fit into either). We're all coming at it from a whole host of different and personal positions, with a range of experiences... These bite-size comments aren't really providing the level of depth required to get to grips with each others' ideas and feelings (in the same way that you can with other topics). We don't know enough about each other to provide a sufficient grounds for a discussion on something which is so intimate to people, and it feels like every counter-point stems from a misinterpretation in the post the writer is responding to

[sinewav]

First two minutes are Zizek on love - seems relevant, may be of interest to some
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 0jxclqEJD8

Gotta love when "philosophers" spout off about quantum physics when they have no idea what they are talking about.

We don't know enough about each other to provide a sufficient grounds for a discussion on something which is so intimate to people, and it feels like every counter-point stems from a misinterpretation in the post the writer is responding to

No, this is not true at all. Speaking as someone who used to believe in God, I am extremely familiar with the other side.

[þsy]

Yeah, but as someone who is also familiar with 'both sides', I have absolutely no idea what it is like to be part of a Catholic Church in Germany and the culture there, nor do I know what it's like to be a member of an Orthodox Church in Greece, or a Pentecostal Church in America. And that (denomination + location + associated cultures) is only one aspect amongst a myriad of factors that construct a sense of Christian or Non-Christian identity. And as I said, those two categories on their own aren't even sufficient - I wouldn't place myself in either, and not because I'm trying to be hip or alternative - but because of a real conflict of personal factors

As I've pointed out before on these forums, I feel it's best to not to conflate a person and an idea that person has, but to discuss ideas as separate from the person who has articulated them. In this example, however, that's exceptionally difficult, as beliefs/ideas concerning 'God' tend to play a fundamental part in the shaping of people's identities - it's a very personal thing. So I think to understand someone's argument, we'd need to understand more about the person making the argument than we already do

Ideally we'd all meet for a cup of coffee and hear about each other's histories and experiences, and then discuss our thoughts and ideas. But that would be creepy!

[compguygene]

That same "God thingy" calls me to respect your viewpoint, and love you unconditionally.

Did you ever stop to think that you love others because that's what a normal human being does? I wouldn't take any calls from someone to love others while they simultaneously call others into hate.

No, I would say that I am able to express more and greater love than I would otherwise, as an extension of my love for my Lord and Savior. As I have known him since I was pretty young, I can't speak of this as some would, but many people I have met through the years who came to know Him as an adult share stories of being able to love more and share much greater love with more people after coming to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

I know you are gonna take this viewpoint that God hates certain people because of what is written in the Old testament. I would disagree. I also know that me saying anymore than that is pointless as we have already hashed this out before......

Let me be a bit more simplistic about my viewpoint.

I would say that I do see plenty of evidence of God's existence, and a need for a relationship with him in my life. I accept that you cannot see my viewpoint and I am ok with that. For the sake of argument, let's just say that everything that I firmly believe and influences many of the choices of my life is utter hogwash. Can't you just leave me be in my happiness in said belief? It seems you are pushing your viewpoint a lot harder on me than I on you! I am not speaking for any other person who claims to be a Christian. But, as for me, I am not pushing my viewpoint, other than to represent what I believe as being true to me. I am willing to accept your viewpoint, even if I do not agree with it. For all you Atheists insist Christians persecute you, you certainly seem to desire to push your viewpoint to the extreme. I am only waiting for one of you to insist that I am delusional and must suffer from a Psychiatric Disorder to believe in what is clearly such a fairy tale in your opinion. Can you not do the same with me?

[sinewav]

For the sake of argument, let's just say that everything that I firmly believe and influences many of the choices of my life is utter hogwash. Can't you just leave me be in my happiness in said belief?

As long as you don't hurt anyone, you can believe what you want. The problem comes in when you fail to admonish your Christian kin when they act out. So don't fail. If you see Christians doing things like supporting DOMA, you should loudly and proudly point out their un-christlike behavior. Note: the same is true about Muslims who don't speak out against extremism, Hindus who support rape, and Buddhists who kill Muslims. Your religion isn't worth crap if it leads to hate and segregation.

It seems you are pushing your viewpoint a lot harder on me than I on you! I am not speaking for any other person who claims to be a Christian. But, as for me, I am not pushing my viewpoint, other than to represent what I believe as being true to me. I am willing to accept your viewpoint, even if I do not agree with it. For all you Atheists insist Christians persecute you, you certainly seem to desire to push your viewpoint to the extreme.

Let's get one thing straight, because you seem to be brainwashed by the talking heads. You are a Christian in the USA. That puts you in the company of greater than 75% of the population. Atheists in America are not pushing our beliefs on you, we are pushing back against yours. Here in America, people equate the morality of an atheist with that of a rapist. Religious brainwashing is the reason. It's fine if you want to call yourself a Christian, just know that you keep the same company as the Westboro Baptist Church and I keep the same company as Carl Sagan (he's so hot!). We have accepted your rotten viewpoints long enough. Time to make some changes.

I am only waiting for one of you to insist that I am delusional and must suffer from a Psychiatric Disorder to believe in what is clearly such a fairy tale in your opinion. Can you not do the same with me?

No, not as long as you and your Christian friends continue to do such righteous things as pass laws making homosexuality punishable by death like they did in Uganda. Not as long as Christians in the US try to thwart scientific research and the teaching of proper science in the classrooms. Not as long as your kin try to make the USA a theocracy. Sorry if you don't like the things I say, but I will not shut up as long as religious intolerance exists. So you best shut your eyes and ears or get used to it.

[Nanu Nanu]

Relevant IMO. I apologize if it is offensive to anyone. http://youtu.be/-ROTzn4L3M8

The thing about religion is that it's vast and empty. It's kinda like space.

So is religion the final frontier?


By the way, I feel that I should remind everyone that the Bible was written many of years after Jesus of Nazareth lived; meaning that until then, the stories of him were passed down by word of mouth. This is similar to how Homer's stories were passed down, so had history been a bit different, we may be regarding Odysseus as our Lord and Savior. (Not sure how it didn't happen this way, Homer's stories are far more interesting).

Gene, I really thank you and respect you for not being the kind of person to push everyone to believe in what you believe. I sometimes like to put my two cents in, but I will always try to refrain from pushing anyone into believing what I do. However, I can kind of see why those on both sides of the argument would want to do this. You each see each other as making some error in logic or faith, and wish to correct the other. This arguement will rarely come to a constructive ending as most people, whether they accept it or not, are stubborn and dislike change (be it in their ideas or in their life). But that magic baby seems pretty cool. We should bring it some frankincense. Babies love that shit.

[compguygene]

For the sake of argument, let's just say that everything that I firmly believe and influences many of the choices of my life is utter hogwash. Can't you just leave me be in my happiness in said belief?

As long as you don't hurt anyone, you can believe what you want. The problem comes in when you fail to admonish your Christian kin when they act out. So don't fail. If you see Christians doing things like supporting DOMA, you should loudly and proudly point out their un-christlike behavior. Note: the same is true about Muslims who don't speak out against extremism, Hindus who support rape, and Buddhists who kill Muslims. Your religion isn't worth crap if it leads to hate and segregation.

It seems you are pushing your viewpoint a lot harder on me than I on you! I am not speaking for any other person who claims to be a Christian. But, as for me, I am not pushing my viewpoint, other than to represent what I believe as being true to me. I am willing to accept your viewpoint, even if I do not agree with it. For all you Atheists insist Christians persecute you, you certainly seem to desire to push your viewpoint to the extreme.

Let's get one thing straight, because you seem to be brainwashed by the talking heads. You are a Christian in the USA. That puts you in the company of greater than 75% of the population. Atheists in America are not pushing our beliefs on you, we are pushing back against yours. Here in America, people equate the morality of an atheist with that of a rapist. Religious brainwashing is the reason. It's fine if you want to call yourself a Christian, just know that you keep the same company as the Westboro Baptist Church and I keep the same company as Carl Sagan (he's so hot!). We have accepted your rotten viewpoints long enough. Time to make some changes.

I am only waiting for one of you to insist that I am delusional and must suffer from a Psychiatric Disorder to believe in what is clearly such a fairy tale in your opinion. Can you not do the same with me?

No, not as long as you and your Christian friends continue to do such righteous things as pass laws making homosexuality punishable by death like they did in Uganda. Not as long as Christians in the US try to thwart scientific research and the teaching of proper science in the classrooms. Not as long as your kin try to make the USA a theocracy. Sorry if you don't like the things I say, but I will not shut up as long as religious intolerance exists. So you best shut your eyes and ears or get used to it.

Well, it seems we can agree on the idiocy and stupidity of my "so called" brothers in the Christian faith. Fair enough. The personal viewpoint of Christianity that I would push would be diametrically opposed to said idiots as well. With a son who is openly Gay, over the age of 18 and living with us, with our full love and support, I like to think that I am living through what Jesus would do today. He knows that I view Homosexuality as a sin, but we meet his dates, happily. He comes to me first for dating advice and feels free to talk with me about anything, and I do truly mean anything. My wife and I firmly believe that were Jesus to walk this earth today, he would spend a lot of time hanging with the LGBT community, just like back in his day, he spent a lot of time hanging with the prostitutes and tax collectors.
So, I hope you can see that my viewpoint is rather different than the mainline, screwed up and wrong, unloving and hateful, Christian one. If you think that I cannot square that with what is written in the Old Testament, you are wrong.

[Lucifer]

What if Jesus is alive today and his name is Richard Dawkins?

Considering his history of attempting to reform bad churches, how would that affect your viewpoint?