The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

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delinquent
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by delinquent »

sinewav wrote:Not to belabor the point, but this is real life kiddo. I'm real, and you are real. Real feelings were hurt, and data was deleted from a physical location. Just because you are not emotionally engaged in this game doesn't mean other aren't. Some people invest precious time and hard earned money to enjoy this game. That's real time and real money. I just don't understand how kids like you think there is some sort of magical barrier between you and your online world. A lot of people in this game know each other personally. For example, tRonPaul and I have been friends since the early 90's. Some are family. Some people have dated and even gotten married from this game. Not real life? Don't kid yourself. As soon as you all realize this, the easier it will be to see the implications of your actions and the sooner we can move past this petty crap.

Oh, I understand where you are coming from here, but I suggest that the majority of current online... profiles(?) are less involved than this, due to the size and nature of the web nowadays. I concur that many older players have somewhat heavily invested part of their lives in this "community" but that with the fewer number of people and the increased difficulty in accessing the net back then made the consequences and risks of being so heavily involved much smaller than today. I think that at this time, those who are newer to the online world should be somewhat apprehensive about becoming so immersed as the risk is that much greater. In other words, acceptance of the desensitization of electronic profiles. Naturally it becomes a lot different when one begins to meet other players personally, online or by other means, but I do suggest there is such a thing as being too involved. That, I believe, is what evokes such emotional attachment.

tl:dr It's a wonderful thing when people meet over miles of copper cable and computer trickery, but there is such a facet as too much of a good thing.


Edit: I put a barrier up because I have learnt to do so from past experiences. I won't go into it, but expense was great, both monetary and physically.
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compguygene
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by compguygene »

delinquent wrote:
Oh, I understand where you are coming from here, but I suggest that the majority of current online... profiles(?) are less involved than this, due to the size and nature of the web nowadays. I concur that many older players have somewhat heavily invested part of their lives in this "community" but that with the fewer number of people and the increased difficulty in accessing the net back then made the consequences and risks of being so heavily involved much smaller than today. I think that at this time, those who are newer to the online world should be somewhat apprehensive about becoming so immersed as the risk is that much greater. In other words, acceptance of the desensitization of electronic profiles. Naturally it becomes a lot different when one begins to meet other players personally, online or by other means, but I do suggest there is such a thing as being too involved. That, I believe, is what evokes such emotional attachment.

tl:dr It's a wonderful thing when people meet over miles of copper cable and computer trickery, but there is such a facet as too much of a good thing.


Edit: I put a barrier up because I have learnt to do so from past experiences. I won't go into it, but expense was great, both monetary and physically.
I think you are missing the point that sine is trying to make. So, I am going to make it a different way.

One of the things that drive some of us old people nuts about the way that many younger approach this is how you draw this separation between "internet life" and "real life" that seems to allow you to behave in "internet life" in a manner that you would never behave in "real life". I think that we can all agree that "internet life" is separate from "real life" in that you can experience things that you could not in "real life". But, if you think about, you will see that "internet life" really is just another extension of the social experience of "real life". Yeah, I just said that "internet life" is just another social experience of "real life".
When we compartmentalize "internet life" as some fantasy land experience, then we can justify doing all kinds of things that are really bad, mean, and at times downright evil. Now, I know a lot of you are gonna say "this is just a game, who cares?". But, one you are interacting in the game and on these forums, you are interacting in a community that one could compare to going to the local gym and playing basketball. Yeah, it's a game, but even with trash talking et al, there are still basic social rules and conventions that one follows to maintain order and peace in the community.
So, we can honestly draw the analogy that the incident that is referred to in this topic could be compared to going to another basketball teams place that they stored messages that was not at the gym, and burning some of the letters team members had written. I think all of you can see that doing so is wrong, and could be punishable by law as the unlawful destruction of property. And doing this by convincing a member of the team to let you in the house does not by any means justify said behavior.
Where in the heck do we get the idea that somehow doing this on the Internet is somehow ok?
Is it not just as hurtful to the victims?
I also would like to say that it is awesome to see that mYm members and leaders are taking the high road to move toward forgiveness and ending this stuff. If I had any concerns about mYm trolling vs trash talking, well I think that in this case, mYm leaders and members have really shown some decent character in this.
The only reason I am even bothering to make this post, is that I really do tire of people thinking that doing bad things because "it's just a game" is really annoying, and rather makes me angry to see. My simplest response is that "It is just a game, let's just have fun and not be mean and act overly stupid to ruin the fun for others". In Immortal Dynasty, I recently declared a set of "official rules" here they are, just to show you what I really mean.

1. Have fun and help others to have fun.
2. If you don't know what to do or have questions about things, refer to rule number 1.
3. We are a tag wearing clan, if you go around without tags we will just assume that you have left the clan.

That is all the rules we need. Anytime we have had a member do things that seem to violate rule number one, we just decide on the basis of that what to do.

Let's just keep this game about having fun. We all have lives that are challenging enough, none of us play this game to make our lives more miserable than they might already be. Let's just have fun people.
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by Word »

Please refrain from clan propaganda that could backfire horribly. You know that to some people it's up for interpretation what is fun and what isn't.
Last edited by Word on Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ritsuka
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by Ritsuka »

tl;dr

sine is smart, word is opinionated, brok3n learned how to use a web proxy.

\o/

enough of the drama, llama.
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by AI-team »

thanks a lot for the tl;dr rit
  
 
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by Word »

flowers for MYM!!




(quote/copy to read first version)

Thanks for reminding us that no matter how clueless you are you think everything else sucks. Here's your certificate of poverty.


*imagining how Rit's nut-sized jelly brain goes up in flames, its remains only capable of one more dumb response that is lauded by every juvenile binge drinker in tron.* *psychopathic laughter*
Last edited by Word on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:10 am, edited 5 times in total.
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delinquent
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by delinquent »

Good grief. Yes, I think I understand your point a little better Sine, thankyou Gene.

My argument, however, is that since a minority of younger web users are disrespectful in one way or another it is quite often necessary to distance oneself from the community. I admit, it has it's good and bad points, but I prefer to stay... disconnected.

I also think it (can be) very healthy to have these debates, for all parties. We're all on a learning curve (not meaning that in a know-it-all fashion) and interactions can be so very differently interpreted online as opposed to in real life. Also bearing in mind that there are many different cultures here, and it can be difficult to interact between them.

Reading that back to myself, perhaps the real reason that I find desensitization so convenient is that I'm not ready, or perhaps not mature enough to understand the interactions completely. Compared to many of you, I am a very young person (19 - not to make anyone feel too old!).


And an afterthought: I get the extension of socialisation idea, I'm also of the view that reactions should be considerably toned down online. Not just here, everywhere on the web. Primarily as a result of those who feel compelled to abuse the gap that so many of us younger players have put between real life and web life. On the other hand, in the Phoenix forums I feel much more at ease, I think as a result of the community being that much smaller. Or, perhaps, it is because I have joined that community comparatively early, as opposed to this one which I have joined very much further into it's life.
Now perhaps I'm delving into psychology... a subject on which I am very opinionated, so I go no further.
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by Ritsuka »

<3wurd
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by Word »

We all know that. The topic has turned into something more general on page 2 ("does being online mean you have a license to act stupidly?"), after Kivic's remark. I'm happy how MYM handled it, and you're right that Rd's demeanour is all the more shameful because of that. My reply to compguy had nothing to do with Brok3n or your clan, neither did sine's (or delinquent and the others for that matter). I didn't claim to know more about your clan since it is irrelevant for this debate, and my post. Look at the context.
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by Gaz »

Word wrote:We all know that. The topic has turned into something more general on page 2 ("does being online mean you have a license to act stupidly?"), after Kivic's remark. I'm happy how MYM handled it, and you're right that Rd's demeanour is all the more shameful because of that. My reply to compguy had nothing to do with Brok3n or your clan, neither did sine's (or delinquent and the others for that matter). I didn't claim to know more about your clan since it is irrelevant for this debate, and my post. Look at the context.
Respect gained.
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by compguygene »

Word wrote:Please refrain from clan propaganda that could backfire horribly. You know that to some people it's up for interpretation what is fun and what isn't.
Sorry, I was just saying how we do things. Obviously, that only works when you are very careful about who you choose as members, and how you interpret situations. But, there is a point to be made there if you take what I said in that context.
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by Word »

That's an interesting way to put it ;)

I won't make a secret out of that, in our clan choosing members carefully meant trying to give everyone a shot and kicking the ones who caused major problems that didn't leave any room for interpretation*. Our unwritten guidelines did neither include to get people who'd be predictable enough to suck up and to everyone and say "LOL TRUE DAT" every time I posted a questionable text or video, too young to question what we confront them with, nor to ban, shun or defame those who spoke up. And leaving the clan was rarely followed by a ban (karas, bambam, saffia and swiss perhaps, don't remember others) too.

So your three rules, as simple and easy to remember as they seem, say nothing about the things that could happen as soon as anyone with power thinks they might have been violated. For the sake of transparency and less capriciousness, be honest and don't leave that out. "How we do things" is a wide field, even if you practice a reasonable diligence whenever you invite players.


*but if you look at Rd's reaction here I have to relativize that...
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by compguygene »

You are correct that it may seem that we have no way of dealing with an out of control leader. In the 2+ years that I have been a member of the ID Council, which is our leadership, we have had 2 small incidents (nothing the scope of what has happened in this topic). In one case, a topic was started among just the ID council, and the person involved realized the error of his ways and stopped causing the trouble that was happening. In the second case, no topic was started, but some discussions happened via pm and /msg in game. At the same time, the person in question went inactive, and when they returned to the game after a hiatus of over a year, they left ID.
Most people think that ID has a clan leader. We no longer do that. The last 2 clan leaders that we had we not Arilou, contrary to popular belief. About 2 years ago, we decided to not have a clan leader any longer as it really caused more problems than good. Arilou is the owner and administrator of the ID Forums, which does give him a bit of power like a clan leader, but any member of the ID council can admin any section of the Forums. We have tried to keep things as informal as possible, whilst still having some basic structure to things. A number of our newest members have come from clans that have literally 2 pages of rules about the administration of their clan. The impression that I have gotten is that the long lists of rules have tended to create more oppression of clan members that are not members of the leadership. It really seems that these rules, while creating stability for a clan, have done more to curtail creativity and fun. It is almost like these clans have created a corporate bureaucracy that helps those in power to maintain that power. We are more tribal. We don't have division leaders, anybody that wants to organize a team is free to just do it. Any advice and support they need is given to them. The only official position we have other than the ID Council, is Recruiter. Anybody is free to recruit for the clan. Because we play everything and are active in all game modes but shooting, (well, I am the only one of us that plays shooting games), we need to have a recruiter that can test anybody in any game mode.
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by Word »

It really seems that these rules, while creating stability for a clan, have done more to curtail creativity and fun
Maybe, but that creativity neither manifests itself on the grid nor on your forums, or does it? The stability part can also mean you have lots of new players with tags - which is OK for some, but not for everyone, as you know.
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Re: The hacker who didn't cover up his tracks well enough.

Post by nux »

Word wrote:
It really seems that these rules, while creating stability for a clan, have done more to curtail creativity and fun
Maybe, but that creativity neither manifests itself on the grid nor on your forums, or does it? The stability part can also mean you have lots of new players with tags - which is OK for some, but not for everyone, as you know.
Well, yes, whoever comes up with something does it on the grid. The distribution is the problem. By having an open forum like they do, members dont hesitate to make a thread about it. Another member can improve certain parts of the idea freely, which generally makes it a better idea. The concept is just the same as the open source/free software movement.

I have never been in their forums, so thats entirely based on what gene said and assumptions, but i dont think im too off.
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