Teachers only have to know stuff

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Lucifer
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Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by Lucifer »

Ok, this is taken from a facebook post I just made, and I didn't edit it, but I figure y'all can see what I'm talking about.

So, what do you think?

Just in case I wasn't clear about this, I'm not saying to get rid of teachers in any way. :) We need them now more than ever.

And yes, there are skills that teachers need to have to be able to teach particular subjects.

But to be able t
o teach (in texas, at least), you have to have a master's degree that includes something like 15 or 18 hours of graduate level courses in the subject you're teaching. But what if all you want to do is teach geometry to advanced 7th graders, why do you need the graduate classes?

I'm suggesting looking at the situation differently. Instead of focusing on what teachers *know*, we should reorient ourselves on *how well they can teach it*. So we make it ok to teach any class you've taken yourself, because when students need more information, you can get it from the database, or they can get it from the database. A lot of classes, like history and general science, can be taught in a completely automated way where you'd have someone more like a tutor available to help, and THAT person can be a student! Skills classes (like math, language, writing, etc) would certainly require someone competent in the skills being taught.

We even have computers that are capable of grading written papers. While I would certainly argue that a human would grade better, those computers can grade to the minimum standards needed. Basically, they can tell if a person can write competently at the level they're supposed to be able to when they finish high school.

So why do we resist using computers and databases in this manner? Why do we keep teachers around who really only know things but can't teach for shit? Hell, in high school I had a geometry teacher who didn't even teach the class, he just had us read the book and do the assigned homework. His test review was about 20 minutes long. I ended up teaching that class, and I didn't know geometry myself! So I read the book, did a few problems, then spent the next 45 minutes showing everybody else how to do them. Why didn't I get paid that teacher's salary for that hour? Oh, right, because I wasn't qualified to teach, even though my class outperformed all of his other classes, and most of the other geometry classes in the school at that time.

There's an entire area of educational research devoted to figuring out how people learn, and from time to time new teaching methods come out of it. Can we create a 2 year degree based on that research that includes some time as an intern tutor and build a new education system from there? You know, where you can only become a teacher after you've demonstrated an ability to teach to wide groups of people?

The system we have right now is oriented around grades, doing homework, and passing tests. These are all things you have to do to become qualified as a teacher. But nowhere in the system is actual understanding required to get good grades, pass classes, and finish high school. I think I see a link between that and the fact that nowhere in the teacher certification process is a point where a person has to prove they can teach at all. All you have to do to be a teacher is get good grades by doing your homework and passing tests.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by Slov »

only kinda scrolled through the post but I agree with everything you said.. gon edit this later
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by Ratchet »

I like what you had to say. I also, currently, have a World Geography teacher that sits on his ass and writes chapter bookwork on the board. He doesn't even grade the damn work, he just puts A's on them. It's cheating for the money and I think it's silly, but he's able to get away with it because he is primarily a Coach for the Athletics. He doesn't give a squat about his teaching side, only the Basketball and Football team. It's quite silly. I agree with ya, 100%.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by kyle »

I've got a CS teacher right now that does not teach, well he will teach but not to the class only in his office hours. the one thing that I told him everyone was struggling with he did end up spending 30 minutes on. He maybe spent 5 on it the first time with no examples.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by Word »

Well, in Germany real teachers have to study some pedagogy and need to be tested in front of a class before they can get the job. Now we have too less teachers so these criteria are less important to the public. This is kind of taken for granted but I know in the US it isn't. The problem here seems to be that some people (Ratchet) think they aren't responsible for learning their stuff (a way of thinking that prevented him from reading the ladle rules already). Teachers should help where they can, but they shouldn't have to replace parents completely. It's just another symptom of the anti-children society.
Last edited by Word on Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by delinquent »

It's not just teachers that are the problem, it's the source of education too.

Everyone goes on about (for example) the meanings and implications of colours in written text, and yet there are very few authors who use this kind of aural illustration to document mood and genre. Looking at Shakespeare, for example, in a portion of his salvaged diary he writes;
But for the meanings of script and picture, mean not that the royalty speaks dost readeth, but mine intent, that which is nothing
Proving in some degree that when curtains are blue, they are blue and that's it. No intention of mood, that comes later with someone's modern interpretation. And then the public worry about such myths (unproven) such as the illuminati, the Freemasons, (my step-grandfather is a Freemason. He told me about how the idea of Freemasonry has become heavily distorted with time and perception. Initially, the idea was to create freedom for womens' learning and education, whilst retaining the moral fibre of family ethics. It sounds heavily sexist, but in essence at the time of it's creation, the idea was exactly the opposite), and "grand schemes for the future". It may seem a touch creepy, but the ideas of card games that depict pictures of planes flying into buildings could just have easily come from the idea of high-rise obstructions to air travel - why do you think tall structures are required to be lit at night?

The same can be said about history. I don't see anything in modern historical curricular activities to suggest that students are learning how to understand the ways that historical events have changed our present ethical, moral, financial or modular structure, do you? No, students are simply recalling facts (or even fiction) about historical events.

Mathematics: Yes, students learn about integers, algebra and multiplication, but is any of it ever put to use? No, and by the time it is put to use, most of the school lessons have been forgotten! I got an A* in maths at GCSE level, but if I sat the same test today, four years later, I severely doubt I would achieve even a C. There is no practical side, it would seem, to a school-child's math lesson.

Science: Oh, the boiling point of water is 100 degrees celsius? You deserve a medal! Why don't the students learn, for example, how to extract the gold from old recycled PCB's? It is a much more fulfilling task, and subsequently halving the results would a) give the students something to aim for and take home and b) make the costs of the experiment non-existent!

I could go on, but my fingers are quite painful with injury. You get my general idea though.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

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Anything worth learning can be self-taught.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by Phytotron »

No surprise at all that the anti-intellectual kids would respond "ooh, I like and totally agree with everything you say. Teachers suxxors and are dumb I can do it better myself because I don't need to know anything except for my job anyway and computers are better." I know that wasn't (totally) your the intent, but that's how they read it. "Only kinda scrolled through but I agree with everything you said." Come on. Stupid.


Now, first we have to point out that educational systems vary widely from one country to the next. Anyone making generalizations or assumptions about other countries' education systems based on their own need to be careful, and be more specific about addressing only your case. Secondly, even in the US, requirements vary from one state to the next (sometimes even one county/district to the next), both on the side of teacher certification requirements, as well as educational requirements for students (despite the atrocious NCLB, from which most states are now getting waivers, thanks to Obama and Arne Duncan).

Lucifer, I'm afraid to say your post leads me to believe you haven't looked deeply enough into what goes into getting and having a teaching job. Understanding that all that follows varies from one locale to the next, so I'm going to have to generalize somewhat....

If someone is pursuing a Master's for the purpose of teaching, that's going to be a Master of Education in [some specific area], not some other masters program (most places, anyway; more below). They are in fact learning how to teach as a part of that curriculum; that's the point. And that curriculum is designed, in part, to meet the requirements of the state's certification—and beyond. So, they will be taking all kinds of content knowledge courses, which not only include learning about a given subject, but how to teach those subjects. And yes, they do have to prove they can teach. This includes not only their coursework—which itself includes things like lesson planning and the like—but variously going and spending time with actual teachers, in some places being assigned to a 'mentor' teacher, and then at the end of their coursework they go out as student teachers and are evaluated as such. It's like professional internship in other degree programs. Even after receiving the M.Ed., some states or districts require further student teaching and/or whatever else before full certification is granted, or before they'll be hired as a full-time teacher. Again, the specifics vary from state to state, and one university's Master's program to another, but the fact is, if a person is going to university to explicitly study to be a teacher, they're going to be pursuing a M.Ed, and that's going to include a heavy does of learning how to teach, not only theoretically but practically.

I'm not saying they all come out great, but education about being an educator is in the degree curriculum. And if we're honest, and put away all the political posturing, most people will admit that most teachers are good teachers doing the best they can with the limited resources at their disposal. Most of the problems in our educational system don't reside with the teachers themselves, but with the politicians. Teachers are just an easy target.

As far as learning "just 7th grade geometry," er no. First of all, you'll never get hired that way; it's just too specific a job qualification. So you're also limiting your own options as to how employable you are. Secondly, in a lot of places, at least up until the high school level, your Master's may have a focus in one subject, but you could be assigned to teach any subject. Of course, if it's elementary level, you're teaching all subjects. And remember, you're hired by the district, not a school; they assign your your school as well. Third, even if you get that 7th grade geometry class you covet, any teacher can tell you, the experience of teaching is never that narrow; other stuff is always going to come up. You begin to acknowledge that yourself when you propose this database idea. And as far as that idea goes, all I can say is "yeah, right."

There's also immense benefit to interdisciplinary education; incorporating one subject to teach another. Oh, speaking of math, there's also all this stuff like integrated mathematics, too, so only knowing 7th grade geometry wouldn't get you hired there, either, or benefit the students. Same goes for the sciences, humanities, etc.

By analogy, what you're proposing would be kinda like learning only how to sauté certain types of vegetables, or only how to change fuel/oil/air filters, then trying to get a job as a chef or mechanic. It ain't gonna happen, right? Right.

Back to requirements for certification. Again, it varies widely; I can't begin to touch on all them around the country (let alone the world). But, for a couple examples relating to a Master's degree: A lot of states don't require a master's before certification, but within 5 years of getting certified. Others have special programs/exemptions that allow someone who has a degree in a non-education-related field, who has been out in the workforce for a long time but now wants to teach, to come back and apply that. But even in many of those cases, they will also be put into a program that teaches them how to teach.

Which leads to a broader question: Why do you apply this "they only need to have this narrow amount of knowledge" requirement to teachers? Why then, does anyone need a general education? I mean, as I recall, you've always been an advocate for general education, against creating narrow, singularly-minded and -trained cogs. Yet, you seem to be proposing just those sorts of cogs as teachers. Beyond all the above, having a broader education produces higher quality teachers.

Lastly, using the worst anecdotal examples of the lowest quality teachers as an argument for computers being "just as good" as an alternative, I think only makes an argument for how poorly computers would be in place of real people.
Ratchet wrote:It's cheating for the money and I think it's silly, but he's able to get away with it because he is primarily a Coach for the Athletics. He doesn't give a squat about his teaching side, only the Basketball and Football team. It's quite silly. I agree with ya, 100%.
Right, because A) teachers get paid soooo well, and B) that example is totally typical of most teachers. :roll: "I agree with ya 100%" Come on.
delinquent wrote:The same can be said about history. I don't see anything in modern historical curricular activities to suggest that students are learning how to understand the ways that historical events have changed our present ethical, moral, financial or modular structure, do you? No, students are simply recalling facts (or even fiction) about historical events.
Precisely why certification requirements for teachers shouldn't be made as narrow as Lucifer suggests. All those problems you describe are political (here, it's the bane of NCLB and the vogue of standardized tests, which people are slowly realizing was a terrible idea).

Don't blame the teachers.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

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Word wrote:The problem here seems to be that some people (Ratchet) think they aren't responsible for learning their stuff (a way of thinking that prevented him from reading the ladle rules already).
So you're insisting that the proper method of teaching should be assigning bookwork and not even attempting to teach anything at all? Why exactly do we have teachers with degrees, then? Shouldn't anyone be able to hand out a text book and say complete the assessments? I'm not sure what you're saying here. I mean, if you believe a student is responsible for learning by themselves, rather than a teacher teaching them, why the hell do we even go to school? Certainly, I was in the wrong for not pursuing my information in that instance, but it can't be applied to going to school and not having someone teach you. I shouldn't have been "taught" the rules, but I should be "taught" the material that the teacher was hired to "teach." It's not the same thing.
Phytotron wrote:
Ratchet wrote: It's cheating for the money and I think it's silly, but he's able to get away with it because he is primarily a Coach for the Athletics. He doesn't give a squat about his teaching side, only the Basketball and Football team. It's quite silly. I agree with ya, 100%.
Right, because A) teachers get paid soooo well, and B) that example is totally typical of most teachers. :roll: "I agree with ya 100%" Come on.
I don't recall making a direct reference to how much money they make. Though, $50,000 isn't a small sum of tax money when you're talking about writing letters on papers and entering it into a computer. I also never mentioned that it was typical of most teachers, though Lucifer's post referenced teachers in general. I was making a specific example of a teacher that shouldn't have a job right now, especially if there were higher standards to how well you "teach", rather than "know."
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by Phytotron »

Ratchet wrote:$50,000 isn't a small sum of tax money when you're talking about writing letters on papers and entering it into a computer.
A) Where do you get $50,000? B) You really think that's all that's involved in being a teacher?
I also never mentioned that it was typical of most teachers, though Lucifer's post referenced teachers in general.
Ratchet wrote:I agree with ya, 100%.
:roll:

You gave a specific and atypical example, and implied an extrapolation to teachers, and the teaching profession, in general. You and Kyle both.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by Ratchet »

Phytotron wrote:
Ratchet wrote:$50,000 isn't a small sum of tax money when you're talking about writing letters on papers and entering it into a computer.
A) Where do you get $50,000? B) You really think that's all that's involved in being a teacher?
I also never mentioned that it was typical of most teachers, though Lucifer's post referenced teachers in general.
Ratchet wrote:I agree with ya, 100%.
:roll:
I get $50,000 because that's what my Math teacher makes, whom is also a football coach. I've asked him before. I know that's not all that's involved in being a teacher, but it is truthfully very close to the extent of what he does. I realize I can't accurately recount the events of his day and tell you all that's involved, but I can say that it's hardly a stressful day at work. He makes minimal efforts, and sticks to assigning bookwork and looking at the papers long enough to put a grade on them. Plus, (some) teachers these days go as far as to print all their tests and note handouts from the internet. Not that it can't or doesn't contain roughly the same material, they're just straying away from their own teaching methods and trying to minimize the workload. I just think this teacher is over-simplifying it and losing the values of being a teacher all together. He's assigning work and avoiding teaching.
I also never mentioned that it was typical of most teachers, though Lucifer's post referenced teachers in general.
Ratchet wrote:I agree with ya, 100%.
Phytotron wrote:You gave a specific and atypical example, and implied an extrapolation to teachers, and the teaching profession, in general. You and Kyle both
Can't I say I agree with what he has to say about requiring teachers to pass a "teaching test", if you will, while also pointing out an atypical example that could have been prevented by the changing of the process? :roll: Meh.


EDIT: I get the general idea, though. No point in arguing over such minute things. I'll be dissatisfied with how my teacher teaches, and you'll insist that US education is perfectly fine, and we'll go on our way.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by delinquent »

I'd love to go all intellectual here and continue a debate that seems to have veered slightly onto wages and standard curricular assessments, but I think the entirety of the problem lies not with the way teachers teach, or the way they are assessed, or even the way they are taught to teach, but with the essence of learning itself. Like most other "principles of life" as you may put it, I feel very strongly that the various educational systems have become extremely warped.

Teaching, in it's most basic form, is the passing on of skills (or experiences) from one who has attained them previously (and thoroughly studied them), to a person or personage who are ignorant of all or part of them. Understandably, this system has it's flaws, seeing as much like Chinese Whispers, the methods of practice change and warp the further they go (i.e. the more people the go through).
Phytotron wrote:Precisely why certification requirements for teachers shouldn't be made as narrow as Lucifer suggests. All those problems you describe are political.
This, I think, is an example of why taking the basic form away (i.e. a curricular program designed by a governing body) can prove fatal to the student. Although bringing together the best of the skills possessed by the teacher(s), when a governing body is introduced, the possibility of bias co0mes into play. This is why I believe the curricular programs across the western world (and in other places too, no doubt, but i only have knowledge of the western world) are so severely removed from the construct of teaching and instead, teach only knowledge. as they rarely teach how to use said knowledge, the skills associated with it disappear.

Unfortunately, now that the problem has progressed to such a level, I myself cannot see a feasible way around or behind this problem, other than keeping those currently in learning there for a period of time long and intense enough to replace whatever they have learnt previously, with understanding and power to use it.


Then again, I could be wrong.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by Word »

Ratchet wrote:It's not the same thing.
Believe it or not, assigning bookwork IS teaching. You can think about the stuff you read and question it, compare it to other stuff, enjoy it and connect the dots. You go to school so you learn to learn. And it's exactly the same thing as that absurd ladle discussion.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by delinquent »

I would comment that although it is teaching, a more appropriate definition in this context would be assigning bookwork and then teaching / talking about how to utilise it, make connections and understand it. Often, bookwork alone (I would argue) does not suffice as a satisfactory (or perhaps sufficient is a better word) method of teaching.
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Re: Teachers only have to know stuff

Post by Lucifer »

Phyto, I'm not going point by point yet because I posted a very primitive idea, but I will say a few things:

My bad example teacher isn't representative as teachers as a whole, but IS representative of a particular subset of teachers, and I'm trying to use that example as part of a new way for kids to learn in public schools. That teacher could have been eliminated due to his performance.

Secondly, I have looked into teacher certifications only in Texas, and only for high school/community college, because that's where I want to end up, and only for math and/or physics. In this case, because the student body is older and more mature, more is expected from the student, so the teacher's minimum requirements can be lower as far as teaching abilities, but the knowledge requirements are much higher.

Thirdly, my complaint about teachers having to know "all this stuff that they never teach" is a bit more nuanced, but in absolutely no way can be simplified to "teachers should only have to know what they teach."

Now then, I've spent some more time thinking and have come up with a possible rudimentary outline for a school that implements these ideas.

First, the thing about the database is that whatever depth/breadth of knowledge is required for pretty much any subject (certainly any subject covered in public schools) is available on the internet in some form or other. There's wikipedia, which, for most subjects in public schools actually has better information than the district-approved textbooks. Then there are the proprietary places, university pages, scholarly journals, etc, all of which are available and are included under the simple word "database" for the purposes of this school.

Second, you can't just send kids to school with a list of requirements and expect them to pursue them. They still need guidance. But every kid is different, so our current system of sending kids to school to have a list of requirements forced onto them at every level of their education also isn't working so well.

Among kids, I have observed that when a kid is interested in subject, given a rich environment to pursue it, they will do so. If a kid is NOT interested in a subject, then it's like pulling teeth to get them to study it. It seems to me that our current system is setup for the kids who aren't interested in each subject, and the kids who are are forced to learn at a lesser level and depth than they would like.

Thirdly, one of the things about homeschooling that is cited as why it is so successful when it is successful is that the kids get to pursue subjects at their own pace.

So how do we put all this together in an organized, standards-oriented way?

I'm thinking that having, say, two exit tests altogether is the way to go. Maybe just one. Set a standard for what every kid needs to know to receive a high school diploma. Install a local complete database of some sort (obviously someone would have to sift through the information that's already out there and readily available and put this database together. We call those people "textbook companies", and they're already perfectly capable of doing so).

To achieve accreditation, and to make sure there are people who actually know something about teaching, the management of the school would be your certified teachers. But they wouldn't do much in the way of teaching directly. Or rather, their relationship to teaching would be the same as your burger-flipping manager's relation to flipping burgers: they're expected to do it as the need arises, but their core job is a supervision job.

To provide guidance on topics (essentially guidance to the database), a layer of professional tutors (such as myself) who don't have teaching certs but DO have proven ability to teach would be employed by the school.

Finally, to keep each student working towards graduating, setting goals, making plans, and so forth, the guidance counselor staff would be quite a bit higher than they are currently (you know, where you have TWO counselors, and one takes students up to letter L and the other takes the rest).

Now here's where it starts to get tricky, so watch out.

To provide additional guidance on topics, as part of graduating from THIS school, every single student will be expected to participate in the tutoring process for younger students.

Now, how would this all work together?

Teachers and tutors would form small groups similar to classes that would setup meeting times during school hours. This is where what we currently call classtime would happen. Students wouldn't be "required" to show up to anything in particular, but their guidance counselor will be keeping an eye on them and basically riding herd and making sure each student actually studies.

If a student doesn't like a particular tutor or teacher, they can find another one for the subject. The actual teachers will be checking homework assignments, quizzes, and tests to ensure they meet a certain minimum level of rigor, but those assignments would be designed, assigned, and graded by the tutors.

Now, don't get me wrong. ALL subjects that are REQUIRED to graduate will have such coursework associated with them. For many students, going to the database and doing the automated work will work for some subjects, but the actual subjects will vary by student. For example, I would have done government and economics that way because I have so very little interest in rigorously studying them, but I would show up to a group meeting to participate in the discussion because I have plenty of interest in that. YOU, on the other hand, may very well go to the group meeting and learn the material that way because you have a strong interest in that. Meanwhile, you only want the minimum requirements for math, so you can hit up an upper-class student tutor to get you through 3 credits of math that satisfies the graduation requirement.

Students will be motivated to learn the stuff they're really interested in because in this environment they can study it at their pace with the people they want to study. For stuff they're not interested in, they'll have a counselor riding herd making sure they're setting goals and achieving them and provided appropriate incentives for completion and appropriate disincentives for failures.

Like I say, I'm not saying remove the teacher from the system. I'm saying we can find a way to take advantage of the middle class of people, college students, upper-class students, BS/BA graduates looking for extra money, to set up a system where every student can learn at their own pace in a way that lets them become completely engaged with the material. I think we'll end up with a better basic education if we can address students' own interests.

Ok, so now it's a more mature idea, maybe we'll go point by point, or maybe it needs to cook some more. :)
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