Apology

[Phytotron]

I'm actually straight and I get loads of bitches.

You don't see anybody calling you a heterophobe.

Maybe not, but I'll call that term ("bitches") and its usage misogynistic.

However, I stand by my statement. In a community where in reality, you know few, or no people, why do I need to judge them on anything other than the game we all play?

What do you call all the chat and forum posting and espousing of personal views and stories and demonstration of personality?

Not knowing them.

You know their online persona, though. However shallow or inauthentic as compared to their offline self that it may be, that's what they've chosen to present, and I think it's perfectly justifiable to judge that for, and on the merits of, what it is. Just because someone is online doesn't mean that the things they say or the actions they take are somehow untouchable.

Don't want to be judged? Go hole yourself up and become a recluse. Don't want to judge others? You can't avoid it. But at least shut up about it, pretending like you don't and lecturing others not to.

And by the way, you seem to think that judging only occurs in the negative, or at least portray and argue it that way, which is of course ridiculous. One judges in the positive equally as much, about people or anything else. Judging is not an inherently bad thing; it's a fact of thought. Judging that something is bad isn't bad, either. In fact, it's necessary.

Not to mention how much of your comments about "judging" are wading into postmodernistic waters, and if you've been following my posts at all you know I have no patience for that.

[Venijn]

You know their online persona, though. However shallow or inauthentic as compared to their offline self that it may be, that's what they've chosen to present, and I think it's perfectly justifiable to judge that for, and on the merits of, what it is. Just because someone is online doesn't mean that the things they say or the actions they take are somehow untouchable.

Don't want to be judged? Go hole yourself up and become a recluse. Don't want to judge others? You can't avoid it. But at least shut up about it, pretending like you don't and lecturing others not to.

And by the way, you seem to think that judging only occurs in the negative, or at least portray and argue it that way, which is of course ridiculous. One judges in the positive equally as much, about people or anything else. Judging is not an inherently bad thing; it's a fact of thought. Judging that something is bad isn't bad, either. In fact, it's necessary.

Not to mention how much of your comments about "judging" are wading into postmodernistic waters, and if you've been following my posts at all you know I have no patience for that.

I stated my opinion. When questioned further, I clarified my opinion further. You can say what you like,but you can't say my opinion is wrong, merely that it differs, and I've no idea why you'd think I was lecturing anyone.

I made no note to the application of judgement (+/-,) merely that I cared not for it when playing Tron. Stop looking for arguments I haven't made to argue against.

Finally, no. I haven't been following your posts, I think this is the second time we've had differing opinion, both time I was told I was wrong. Stop judging me.

[ItzAcid]

You should have sent me a tron gift as well.

We just got off on the wrong foot. You might get a gift one day. Not too long ago I offered to buy everyone in mYm new headsets for TeamSpeak, even the players I didn't know (had the hardest time remembering who was in that clan when I was a member...). Who knows, you could be an unexpected beneficiary of my random kindness.

/me prepares to barrage sinewav with kindness, in-game, for goodies.

[Phytotron]

You can't say my opinion is wrong.... Stop judging me.

Yes I can, and no I won't. Buzz off with that muddled, relativist postmodernism. If you don't want people to disagree with your precious opinions, then don't state them. You are not a special snowflake.

And one more point: The conflation of two different classifications of characteristics on which judgements are made. The first class are those characteristics that are inherent and value-neutral--things like "race" (technically non-existent, but of course skin tone is), ethnicity, gender and gender identity, sexual orientation. Of course one shouldn't judge a person, positively or negatively, based on those characteristics, any more than one should based on hair color or type, or nose shape, or foot size. It simply isn't applicable, like saying green is bad because of the way it sounds (synesthetes excluded).

But the things that someone says and does, how the behave and beliefs they hold, are a totally different classification of characteristics. And these are subject to criticism and judgement. And to reiterate, this does not necessarily mean negative judgement. If you say you like like someone, think they're a good person, you're judging them. If you say you like a piece of music or work of art, and give reasons for it, you're criticizing and judging it.

When you made the following comment:

Phytotron, I've a new found respect for your posts, quite entertaining, lol.

...you were expressing a judgement. Indeed, twofold, because you imply that you previously had judged me/my posts negatively. OMG, stop judging me!


Now, one might want to say that what they mean by this over-used expression "don't judge" is something more elaborate and particular. That it means one or both of the following:

A) Don't judge based on inherent, value-neutral characteristics.
B) Don't negatively judge someone for something that is demonstrably harmless.

I would generally agree with both of those statements. But, that's redefining a term, and that won't fly. Be specific.

I made no note to the application of judgement (+/-,)

Sure you did. Perhaps not explicitly, but implicitly.

[Venijn]

You can't say my opinion is wrong.... Stop judging me.

Yes I can, and no I won't. Buzz off with that muddled, relativist postmodernism. If you don't want people to disagree with your precious opinions, then don't state them. You are not a special snowflake.

I stopped reading there. As tempting as continuing is, I think I'll take the blue pill.

(There's a difference between saying you disagree with something, and saying that it is wrong.)

[Lucifer]

Awww, too bad, Venjin, I was starting to like you.

I liked this, though:

saying green is bad because of the way it sounds (synesthetes excluded).

I can't listen to the Pulse on SiriusXM because of how it makes parts of me feel. I love jazz and a good horn section and heavily distorted guitars because they feel like a back rub, although not as intensely as a person rubbing my back would feel.

Anyway, I'm still calling BS on the "lying" thing. Here's why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Gwen_Araujo

Now, there are two comparisons I'm not making here.

1) I'm not comparing sinewav and his level of unhappiness with that of a murderer. He has some good points, and it's Elmo's gender identity that has to settle them. I'm currently staying mum on what I suspect will happen.

2) I'm not comparing Elmo to a transgendered individual, because at this time there's no information to indicate that he is. I would like to point out that your standard mtf crossdresser falls under the transgender umbrella, but is a person that loves to be both male and female, and the internet is an obvious place for that sort of activity. And for a girl to make that person a girl-friend, and then later find out the girl-friend is also male, she just needs to understand that the girl-friend is still there, there's just also a boy friend there, too.

[sinewav]

Anyway, I'm still calling BS on the "lying" thing.

I don't know man, it seems pretty clear to me.

When I first started tron, I was teaching my girlfriend to play and she was using her name. I didn't change it the next day and I just went with it for the past two years. It was incredibly stupid and I have no idea why I did it. It was a game, I figured it didn't matter so I just never bothered to fix it when it started to happen.

You think there is possibly something deep down inside Elmo is not in touch with? Should we change to tone of this thread to "dude you lied" to "hey man, you're probably TG. Wanna talk about it? You'll feel better is you talk about it. Why don't you just talk about it? You want a Pepsi?"

[AI-team]

I've been reading these forums for many years now and I've seen a lot of stupid threads, but this one is without a doubt superior to all of them!

[Word]

It would be less stupid if more people here had real moral principles (which others like me often take for granted) and would understand why lying is bad (instead of some seriously trying to justify it and say what Elmo has done was OK because it's not their personal problem or choice, even asking to respect him more for finally telling the truth). Then again, perhaps it isn't that stupid because some these people (you included, since you seem to imply that this debate is idiotic because it was about peanuts - correct me if I'm wrong) could develop their moral sense a bit further - so perhaps it's going to be one of the most useful threads these forums will ever have.

[Slov]

I've been reading these forums for many years now and I've seen a lot of stupid threads, but this one is without a doubt superior to all of them!

lol exactly what I was thinking

[Phytotron]

There's a difference between saying you disagree with something, and saying that it is wrong.

What's the point of holding an opinion if you don't believe it is right? Or disagreeing if you don't believe the other is wrong?

"I disagree, but you're right!"

Elmo's gender identity....

Dude, very first post. I don't think what you've brought into this is applicable to this situation.

[Venijn]

There's a difference between saying you disagree with something, and saying that it is wrong.

What's the point of holding an opinion if you don't believe it is right? Or disagreeing if you don't believe the other is wrong?

"I disagree, but you're right!" -

That point was directed at you! There's a difference between you telling me that my opinion is wrong, and saying you disagree with it. Why would I disagree with my own opinion, I'm not George Bush!

[Lucifer]

When I first started tron, I was teaching my girlfriend to play and she was using her name. I didn't change it the next day and I just went with it for the past two years. It was incredibly stupid and I have no idea why I did it. It was a game, I figured it didn't matter so I just never bothered to fix it when it started to happen.

You think there is possibly something deep down inside Elmo is not in touch with? Should we change to tone of this thread to "dude you lied" to "hey man, you're probably TG. Wanna talk about it? You'll feel better is you talk about it. Why don't you just talk about it? You want a Pepsi?"

No, I'm saying that for all anybody else knows, there could be something he is in touch with, and he's outing himself in the safest way he can think of. If that's the case, it's something the rest of us need to just blow off and move on.

If that's not the case, then treating it as you have makes it that much harder for actual TG people to out themselves in what's supposedly an accepting community. So, basic community standard that has been added by this thread: You must identify as your anatomical gender. Not sure I'm happy about that.

Two horns on every dilemma. I figure that just blowing Elmo off and moving on is the more compassionate move, so it's the one I'm pushing.

[Phytotron]

I think you're reading way too much into that comment. It's not like a transgendered identity is something deeply subconscious and he just committed a Freudian slip and should enter psychoanalysis.

I think much more likely it's a dumbass kid giving the lazy, unthinking "I dunno" when asked, "why did you do that?" I know you've gotten that response from your kids.

It falls in the same category as ending comments with throwaway lines like, "but whatever idk lol" or "just sayin'."

Incidentally, I suggested blowing off this topic four pages ago, but no such luck or action. And then I got into arguing with Venijn on his statements, as a matter of principle, not this specific subject. I was barely even aware an "Elmo" existed, let alone have any notion what his gender was (I probably assumed male).

There's a difference between you telling me that my opinion is wrong, and saying you disagree with it.

No there isn't. That's what it means to disagree, man. In case you missed it, the line I put in quotations is mocking you, because it doesn't make a lick of sense. "I don't think you're wrong, but I disagree!"

Where do you kids get this stuff?

I've been reading these forums for many years now and I've seen a lot of stupid threads, but this one is without a doubt superior to all of them!

lol exactly what I was thinking

lol omg inorite thx slov 4 alwayz b-ing so totes funny n orijnl n smart.... .. ur alwayz so rite on n maykin d bestest contribushuns lol 4reelz bro!!! <3

[TaZ]

I think you're reading way too much into that comment. It's not like a transgendered identity is something deeply subconscious and he just committed a Freudian slip and should enter psychoanalysis.

I think much more likely it's a dumbass kid giving the lazy, unthinking "I dunno" when asked, "why did you do that?" I know you've gotten that response from your kids.

It falls in the same category as ending comments with throwaway lines like, "but whatever idk lol" or "just sayin'."

Incidentally, I suggested blowing off this topic four pages ago, but no such luck or action. And then I got into arguing with Venijn on his statements, as a matter of principle, not this specific subject. I was barely even aware an "Elmo" existed, let alone have any notion what his gender was (I probably assumed male).

There's a difference between you telling me that my opinion is wrong, and saying you disagree with it.

No there isn't. That's what it means to disagree, man. In case you missed it, the line I put in quotations is mocking you, because it doesn't make a lick of sense. "I don't think you're wrong, but I disagree!"

Where do you kids get this stuff?

I've been reading these forums for many years now and I've seen a lot of stupid threads, but this one is without a doubt superior to all of them!

lol exactly what I was thinking

lol omg inorite thx slov 4 alwayz b-ing so totes funny n orijnl n smart.... .. ur alwayz so rite on n maykin d bestest contribushuns lol 4reelz bro!!! <3

Why would you call him a kid? He hasn't directly insulted you once in this thread. You called him a kid so he can get riled up and stoop to your level of insults?