0.2.8 (beta 3 tagged)

[Lucifer]

Where/what is the resource management server?

Central location for map designers to upload maps. Same thing for textures and such when they're supported. I'm waiting on Tank to make up his mind as to what we're doing to get an official website to move the forums to (necessary since authentication for the entire site will be using the forum auth).

Hmmm, oh yeah. I don't think sourceforge will be a good place for it. They've gone through some significant changes with webspace that have borked things like file uploads, and it may not even be possible right now.

I suggest we're better of seeing about registering a domain name or something and just hosting it on our own server somewhere, just making sure that it's loose enough that it can be moved or a mirror can take its place if need be.

Failing all of those things, I'd be happy to host it on the Breakfast off the Grid website.

[philippeqc]

The roadmap seems to be incomplete and missing all bugs and completed features. The complete set of changes for aardvark is being maintained on the first post of this thread, as it has been for quite a while...

non completed items have been moved to sf. check for the tracker roadmap withgroup aarvakr. thos eare the non cloesed that need close to be complete.

Mostly doesn't work. I built it with a #define that disables it, it's not targeted for aardvark. Instead it's targetted for aardvark+1.

aardnak + 1 will be b[soemthing]. But I'm proably stating the obvious. sorry.

just aquestion, would cvs branch be more approcitate than ifdef?

Faulty roadmap... who was maintaining that? =p

if you dont tell me what youwnat on the road map, my brain reading powers arent good enough. So in the end you have to tell me.

Ok, I'll take config rotation off the feature list.

lucifer, is it ready? if so I'll set it ardvak.tel me!

I don't see the default map changing any time soon... defaults are hardly a reason to choose version numbers, anyway.
I think 0.3 is more appropriate since shaped arenas are (IIRC) the biggest change since some 0.1 version

I'm with luci on this. I'll tell you when my lousy code is worth public attention. befor that its just cute. not worth a version.

Local resource storage should be completely straightened out,

blocked on possible engine change. can be that is not worth to change because it is that we cange the real engine.

[Luke-Jr]

Actually, that reminds me... are we going to try getting authentication in for aardvark or will that be waiting until 0.3.1? It makes a bit of sense to target aardvark, since it fits well with the new website and resource repository.

I forgot about it, believe it or not. It would be nice... I'm not deep enough into the code to write it though. I can write a c++-based flat-file system to store it, but I don't think that was the problem at all. Anyway, if we go with the network protocol-based version numbers, then we should try to slip this into any 0.3.0 versioned release if we can.

I'll add it to the feature plan... can always remove it later, but can't add after feature freeze takes place.

16:9 aspect ratios: I already added the 1280x800 option to the resolution menu. This should be renamed to "dynamically determine available resolutions" and I've investigated it. I can have it for aardvark+1, and if it's really wanted for aardvark and we have at least two weeks before the feature freeze, I can have it for aardvark.

Feature freeze does not mean said features must be complete
All it means is that we decide on that list of features and don't add plans for any more.

In that case you can assign me this one and I'll do it. I already had it mostly done, then broke it learning about cervisia.

Added.

I don't see the default map changing any time soon... defaults are hardly a reason to choose version numbers, anyway.
I think 0.3 is more appropriate since shaped arenas are (IIRC) the biggest change since some 0.1 version.

I was thinking more like using the 0.2.8 series to hammer out the shaped arenas and then changing the default map to show off the shaped arenas. I might hit a lot of resistance here, but I really don't think that if Armagetron supports shaped arenas that the default arena should be a boring square. I'm not after anything elaborate, mind you. Just...more.

The square is probably ideal for newbies, thus makes a good default... IMHO

I think the resource management is mostly completed, with exception of the central repository.

including how multiple moviepacks will be stored locally even if we don't support them,

That's irrelevent to the resource management system itself. I'd propose something like
AuthorOrGroup/MoviePackName/Version.xml (which includes settings and texture filenames)

Actually it's not irrelevant to the resource management system. The idea is that a server admin could declare what moviepack to use on his server, so server skinning, and the resource retrieval system would retrieve the moviepack.

Yes, but the resource management system doesn't care what filepath is used for the resources

It's kindof a fundamental feature that's often requested (and I personally want, I might add) and it's very much implied by the shaped arenas anyway.

I'm also after texture selection, but the code doesn't really care about the filepath.

I'm not after a full implementation, just a solid infrastructure because a 0.3.0 version shouldn't require serious effort or dataloss on the part of the user to upgrade, and making upgrades are easier when the file structures are solid. That's all.

Only when the file structures are set in code, which isn't the case here.

and a basic architecture in place for servers to specify moviepacks even if we don't yet support mutiple moviepacks.

I think this will require some major changes to the config system...

a full implementation, yes. But all we need to meet this requirement is a way to add it to the network protocol without borking old clients or breaking compatibility. It's probably (and z-man will post to say it's already there) that it's already there.

An incomplete implementation adds more work to do later so the full implementation is compatible with it.

Is it possible to get, instead of simply a set of configuration options, properties on objects?
For example:

Yep. If this were written in Python..... (or php, which is the only language I've implemented this config system in so far)

Actually, it would be reasonable to make a top-level object from which all ame objects are derived that has the config interface and provides a number of built-in members like you suggest. To my knowledge, there is no way in C++ to dynamically create new class members that aren't declared at compile time.

z-man probably has a templated solution that'll work too.

Well, if we can get the config code moved onto eGameObject or such, it shouldn't be overly complex to handle the server commands to change them...

[Lucifer]

A few things, phil.

1. I'm not much for branching, really. If I'm going to be fooling with files to implement stuff targetted for a later feature or doing generally extensive work, and you'd prefer I branch, I'll do it. For the couple of things I've got going on, #ifdefs work fine so long as I remember to disable the code before committing.

2. Config rotation needs to be targetted for bardvark or later. I'm doing a complete rewrite of configuration to get there and it's not going to be ready for aardvark, but it may be ready for bardvark.

3. What I meant about resource management probably wasn't clear. There needs to be room in the network protocol that we won't be breaking backward compatibility and older clients, and the filesystem needs to be organized and created upon installation so we won't have to deal with providing an upgrade path, we'll just use the existing filesystem setup. No actual code needs to be written, really, just making sure we've got our installation organized, that's all.

[Lucifer]

Ah, I see, Luke, we're talking apples and oranges. I read "resource management" and think that includes (among other things) storing files locally when they're downloaded and determining where to find other "resources", such as models, textures, and so forth, from the local filesystem as well as the interwebby.

If that's wrong, let me know. Installers and rpms are generally unforgiving about directories you create during an upgrade, and moving shit around and stuff. I'd prefer to only reorganize how and where armagetron installs once now, and then not again until there are very compelling reasons. We already know what's coming next to enough of an extent that we can make a reasonable organization for it, and that's one thing I'd like to have before we can version something 0.3.0. Make sense yet or do I need to go to bed before I'll start making sense again?

[Luke-Jr]

Where/what is the resource management server?

Central location for map designers to upload maps. Same thing for textures and such when they're supported. I'm waiting on Tank to make up his mind as to what we're doing to get an official website to move the forums to (necessary since authentication for the entire site will be using the forum auth).

Hmmm, oh yeah. I don't think sourceforge will be a good place for it. They've gone through some significant changes with webspace that have borked things like file uploads, and it may not even be possible right now.

Apparently their servers are pretty slow, too...

I suggest we're better of seeing about registering a domain name or something and just hosting it on our own server somewhere, just making sure that it's loose enough that it can be moved or a mirror can take its place if need be.

Right. The problem, IIRC, is that we don't have such a server
guru3.sytes.net won't quite work if only Tank has access to it. I *could* host it, but I don't think it's a good idea for the entire community to be relying on my connection, especially when I'm unemployed and about to move...

Failing all of those things, I'd be happy to host it on the Breakfast off the Grid website.

Would the necessary people (Tank, you, and I, AFAIK) be able to have the necessary access? The forum would need MySQL and PHP... Resource repo will only need PHP.

Faulty roadmap... who was maintaining that? =p

if you dont tell me what youwnat on the road map, my brain reading powers arent good enough. So in the end you have to tell me.

The list's been on the first post of this topic since before the roadmap existed... =p

Ah, I see, Luke, we're talking apples and oranges. I read "resource management" and think that includes (among other things) storing files locally when they're downloaded and determining where to find other "resources", such as models, textures, and so forth, from the local filesystem as well as the interwebby.

It does.
However, the server (or whatever is requesting a resource) provides the official filepath. The resource manager takes care of local storage based on that path.

If that's wrong, let me know. Installers and rpms are generally unforgiving about directories you create during an upgrade, and moving shit around and stuff. I'd prefer to only reorganize how and where armagetron installs once now, and then not again until there are very compelling reasons. We already know what's coming next to enough of an extent that we can make a reasonable organization for it, and that's one thing I'd like to have before we can version something 0.3.0. Make sense yet or do I need to go to bed before I'll start making sense again?

The installer will only include the resource/included directory. That shouldn't change.

[Lucifer]

Would the necessary people (Tank, you, and I, AFAIK) be able to have the necessary access? The forum would need MySQL and PHP... Resource repo will only need PHP.

The server's already got all that stuff going. I'll need to tighten down a few things, but other than that I don't see a problem. The only catch is, you're not allowed to do anything that might break the server, because it's also my mail server, and without mail I can't talk to the people that give me money, you know what I mean?

[Luke-Jr]

Would the necessary people (Tank, you, and I, AFAIK) be able to have the necessary access? The forum would need MySQL and PHP... Resource repo will only need PHP.

The server's already got all that stuff going. I'll need to tighten down a few things, but other than that I don't see a problem. The only catch is, you're not allowed to do anything that might break the server, because it's also my mail server, and without mail I can't talk to the people that give me money, you know what I mean?

heh, obviously =p
You know to add a limit on # of processes, right? Fork bombs can easily be accidental and kill any *nix w/o such limits...

[Lucifer]

Ok, where would I find the authentication stuff? The way I understand it, we have code that theoretically does persistence, and we have password support from client to server, we just need reistration (which we'll do externally).

So I was wanting to look at it, and I seem to remember someone saying the krawall stuff wasn't the place to look? (Also, on a side note, "authentification" isn't a word, it's "authentication")

[Luke-Jr]

Ok, where would I find the authentication stuff? The way I understand it, we have code that theoretically does persistence, and we have password support from client to server,

No idea what you're talking about

we just need reistration (which we'll do externally).

We already have registration. The forum.

So I was wanting to look at it, and I seem to remember someone saying the krawall stuff wasn't the place to look?

All I know is that krawall is some kind of auth; no details...

[Lucifer]

we just need reistration (which we'll do externally).

We already have registration. The forum.

You know, it's great that we all want to interoperate with the forum and build community and so forth, and these forums are great, and all that good stuff.

However, I don't think it's ok if the game itself depends on the forums. How would you track that in an rpm? "Dependencies....You need to install guru3.sytes.net in order to use the user database". What about server admins that don't want to link up with the forums? What happens when we all have game servers that depend on the forums and Tank's house gets buried in a blizzard with no power, no internet, and so forth?

So, yeah, I don't mind if we link up to the forums because we want to. I mind if we link up to the forums because we have to.

[Luke-Jr]

we just need reistration (which we'll do externally).

We already have registration. The forum.

You know, it's great that we all want to interoperate with the forum and build community and so forth, and these forums are great, and all that good stuff.

Actually, it's more in the interest of having a single registration and being sure that "Your_mom" on the forum is definately "Your_mom" in the game and as a resource designer.

However, I don't think it's ok if the game itself depends on the forums. How would you track that in an rpm?

You wouldn't. It's not a software dependency.

"Dependencies....You need to install guru3.sytes.net in order to use the user database".

Depends on mysql to support phpbb-based auth.

What about server admins that don't want to link up with the forums?

I propose pluggable auth modules:
relay -- authenticate with another server (AA games use this to auth with the official, central, forum-based db)
phpbb -- authenticate using phpbb
mysql -- auth using a mysql db
??? -- others in the future?

What happens when we all have game servers that depend on the forums

We can probably figure out a way to do backup for the forum, or at least the user auth part.

and Tank's house gets buried in a blizzard with no power, no internet, and so forth?

Well, aren't we more worried about your house if that's where we're going to setup the site?

[Lucifer]

I propose pluggable auth modules:

I'm "down with that".

relay -- authenticate with another server (AA games use this to auth with the official, central, forum-based db)

That's the basic idea with the xml-rpc thing, so I'm with that.

phpbb -- authenticate using phpbb

In that case, we have the database, but we don't have the interface. Do you want to try to get Tank to open up his mysql server for me to hit it directly with my server using libmysqlclient? phpBB will need a module to support it. Know of any already built or will we have to roll our own? Mind you, I know Mambo, not phpBB. Anyone else here know phpBB?

mysql -- auth using a mysql db

I'm with that, too.

??? -- others in the future?

soap, postgresql, Mambo (which is getting an xml-rpc interface), zope, etc. All that would need custom authentication modules for us. Luckily, I have absolutely no intention of writing from scratch every single possible auth module in C++.

and Tank's house gets buried in a blizzard with no power, no internet, and so forth?

Well, aren't we more worried about your house if that's where we're going to setup the site?

Did you just suggest there would be a blizzard in Texas?

[Luke-Jr]

I propose pluggable auth modules:

I'm "down with that".

wtf does that mean?!?! =p

phpbb -- authenticate using phpbb

In that case, we have the database, but we don't have the interface. Do you want to try to get Tank to open up his mysql server for me to hit it directly with my server using libmysqlclient?

The forum will be moved to the AA server once it's setup, so it will be on the local machine. (all pending further discussion, of course)

phpBB will need a module to support it.

Well, that depends...
We can easily support *only* phpBB/MySQL combo without any new dependencies.

Know of any already built or will we have to roll our own? Mind you, I know Mambo, not phpBB. Anyone else here know phpBB?

I've done a number of phpBB-based code, such as the News and Downloads pages on http://noyen.ryalth.com
I've also got a partially-complete project ripping out the SQL from phpBB and replacing it with a relay-type interface.

and Tank's house gets buried in a blizzard with no power, no internet, and so forth?

Well, aren't we more worried about your house if that's where we're going to setup the site?

Did you just suggest there would be a blizzard in Texas?

It's possible ;o

[Tank Program]

The odds of Sweden being affected drastically by a blizzard are a lot smaller than the odds of Texas being so affected. This is because they're used to this shit here. And the Server isn't at my house, so me loosing power isn't an issue. I would be in favor of obtaining professional web-hosting and doing it that way if any. Either that or getting a box in colo. Unfortunately, allowing others access is out of the question. That leaves, of course, moving it to my home system, which I have absolutely no clue about how secure it is.

That aside, these forums are sort of like my baby. I started these with very little hope of them ever growing and look at it now! It's the center of Armagetron development, has half a thousand users and a quarter-hundred thousand posts! And _I_ gave rise to it! This whole project fills me with a termendous amount of pride. The point is I don't think I can let it go. I've learned so much, had so many people get pissed off at me over it with the whole moderation thing, that I... Well, I hope you get the picture. I'm enormosely pleased that would be continueing to grow, but I just don't know how to do it yet.