Homosexuality is a Choice(Not!)

[sinewav]

Lot's of people are mistaken about the relationship between "nature" and "nurture." I'm sure it's common to think the relationship is something like 50/50. This is not the case. "Nature" plays a far greater role, and in fact, nature also dictates a lot of these "environmental factors" we hear about.

Sexuality is a continuum. Everyone falls somewhere on the spectrum between homo and heterosexual. I think there is definitely some element of personal choice for people when their sexuality falls near the middle (bi-sexual). But so what? Why they hell would any reasonable person get upset about another person's sexuality? Who cares if you are 100, 60, or 20% homosexual?

Such a stupid position to take. Totally senseless discrimination.

Here is another reason why it's ridiculous to hate on gays. The more gays there are, the less competition for straight people. Let's say me, wap, Word, and syllabear go into a bar. Word and syllabear are gay. So if I start putting the moves on Kijutsu, the only one I have to watch out for is wap. (And if he is as smooth with the ladies as he is in a sumo ring, I'm screwed.)*

Finally, I have a much greater tolerance for effeminate males than misogynistic ones. They disgust me to no end.


* That paragraph is comedy.

[Titanoboa]

Finally, I have a much greater tolerance for effeminate males than misogynistic ones.

You just taught me two words using a single sentence. \o/

wd

[syllabear]

I lold sine

[Word]

Finally, I have a much greater tolerance for effeminate males than misogynistic ones. They disgust me to no end.

Yeah, I thought "misogynistic" would sound a bit too purple...but that describes exactly the kind of parents who could have caused me to become homosexual. do you know these bald men with combat dogs who spend far too much time in fitness centres (not even going to imply that all of them were nazis)?



And it's true, I'd rather be together with Sylla than with Liz, though not for sexual reasons.

Here is another reason why it's ridiculous to hate on gays.

I haven't seen anyone here hating on gays (if you got that impression...). I just explained that I think the argumentation used by Cody is simplified. I know that the exact proportions can't be 50/50. I didn't claim that these proportions were important or that one has to change/can change his sexual orientation, just that it's a long process of actually getting aware of it in the first place. My text was purely descriptive I thought. Wap wrote basically the same, but added some more details to it. All I'm saying is that it's not as simple as both sides want to make it appear.

Who cares if you are 100, 60, or 20% homosexual?

You know also that these surveys don't exist to condemn someone else's sexual orientation, but to help and understand the problems of people that live with it. The same applies for heterosexuality, as everything else in this thread does. Such numbers aren't intended to say anything about the person(s) you actually love.

[Mecca]

Being gay isn't a choice but living the gay lifestyle is.

Someone said that on these forums before I think.

What the hell is a gay lifestyle and how is it different from any other lifestyle?

[INW]

http://www.gaylifestyle.info/

Teehee.

[Faux]

I choose to be gay. I do what i wauunt,

[Lucifer]

Sexuality isn't in any way a choice for anybody. The problem y'all are having is that you're oversimplifying, and also ignoring exactly how complicated it is to become any particular gender in the first place.

First: Oversimplifying. Sexuality includes much more than what gender you like. It's EVERYTHING YOU LIKE. You like oral? Giving and receiving, or just giving? How about bondage? Light, medium, heavy, total submission, or total dominance? Do you get turned on by a back rub? What sizes and shapes of the gender you like really turn you on? Few people are attracted to everybody. I'm attracted to ALMOST everybody. There's a word for that, I think it's omnisexual. Stumbled across it on wikipedia. Has to do with the fact that I think everybody is beautiful for who they are, I suppose. But I didn't choose to have this attitude. Sexuality isn't a choice. One of your missions in life is to learn more about yourself by exploring your sexuality. So stop worrying about other people's sexuality and focus on your own.

Second: Complicated biology.

Here's what happens. At the time of conception, all babies are female. Approximately two weeks into the pregnancy, a zygote that is genetically male will usually (but not always, depending on the mother's body chemistry) get an intense hormonal bath. If the zygote responds (which most do, but not all), it will develop testicles. If it doesn't (a rare condition, about 1 in 30k people), then the zygote will NOT develop testicles.

Later in the pregnancy, the primary sex traits are developed. If testicles are present, then a penis will develop. If testicles are not present, regardless of whether or not there are any ovaries, then a vagina will develop. The baby will be given the gender observed at that time.

During puberty, if testicles are present, then the appropriate hormones will be released to turn the boy body into a man body, mostly from the testicles. If they are not present, and ovaries are, then the appropriate hormones will be released to turn the girl body into a woman body. However, there are situations where a girl body person doesn't have ovaries, and is genetically male. In those situations (again, about 1 in 30k people), the girl cannot develop a woman body without medical intervention.

This is saying nothing about the various other gender combinations we all know and love.

So I ask you all this: If developing an adult gender is that complicated and has so many places for the process to lead to something not specifically male or female, then why should you think that sexuality is so simple? YOUR GENDER is only a small part of your entire sexuality, and it's even up for grabs, should any piece along the way break or just fail to function. So why is sexuality so simple?

I'll just answer it: It's not. Sexuality is as big a word as love and has so many different parts to it that will take you a lifetime to explore, but never understand.

[Phytotron]

There is no such thing as a "gay lifestyle." Period. Would anyone say there's a singular or universal "heterosexual lifestyle?" No, of course not, because we understand that people are individuals and have all sorts of lifestyles that have nothing whatsoever to do with their sexuality. All sexual orientation relates to is what gender one is sexually and romantically attracted to. Homophobes always get hung up on the sex and some invented stereotype of a "lifestyle," not understanding that it's about love. The phrase itself is just another rhetorical device used to ostracize gay people, of portraying them as something odd and 'the other.' "Gays aren't like us, they have a different lifestyle; it's downright uncivilized and un-[insert your country here]."

most homosexuals I know have parents which make me think I would have become homosexual too if I would have had these parents...in that sense, I agree that it isn't a choice. I think that sexual orientation slowly develops as you grow up, not that you're literally born with it, it's dependent on the circumstances you're born in. Maybe there are some specific genes or testosterone-related similarities that are shared by all heteros or all homos, but these things can change and mutate over time.

Honestly, this is one of the stupidest posts you've ever made, Word. First, what the hell are you talking about with the parents? Makes no sense. Be specific and back it up, and see if you can do it without absurd, baseless stereotypes. It's also humorous that you'd say "in that sense, I agree that it isn't a choice" when in that other recent thread you were mocking extra-genetic causality in favor of a completely free will. Sometimes I think you don't even know what you believe.

Then, where do you get the rest of that? Have you actually talked to any gay people or asked them? Have you done any unbiased research? You're just making shit up. Just because you can find a Wikipedia entry about an area of research doesn't mean that research has been validated, or that it's even legitimate. Research into a phenomenon isn't evidence of that phenomenon. There's research into all kinds of crazy shit.

Fact is, if you ask any gay person, each and every one of them will tell you that they've always known they're gay. They didn't "slowly realize" it or choose it. The only questioning that ever occurs results from being raised in cultures wherein they've been told their entire lives that homosexuality is strange or wrong. But the questioning there isn't whether they're gay; it's questioning the cultural attitude that they're defective and are supposed to be straight. The only realization is that that's all a lot of bullshit and it's OK to be who they are by nature, who they've always known themselves to be.

Understand, this is not a matter of philosophical argument. It doesn't matter what you believe, or what your opinion is. Whatever the ultimate and specific cause(s) of homosexuality, the overwhelming evidence is that it is inherent. It is not chosen, learned over time, or caused by socio-cultural influences—any more than is heterosexuality, which is to say, not at all. We also find that homosexuality occurs in the same proportions in all animals species. Yes, humans are animals, apes specifically. We are evolved and cousins to all living things. Deal with it or shut up. Science is not a philosophy for you to cherry-pick where it might conveniently fit in with your religious apologetics. Don't make scientific claims about reality unless you're willing to accept all the rest of science. There is no middle ground.

You know also that these surveys don't exist to condemn someone else's sexual orientation...

Bull.

but to help and understand the problems of people that live with it.

Case in point. What problems? You want to "cure" gay people? Love the sinner, hate the sin? Pray the gay away? They're allowed to be gay, just not act on it? There are a lot of people who—following from the belief that homosexuality is chosen or learned, and/or that it's a "lifestyle"—treat it as though, and believe it to be, it's a philosophical argument and use surveys against the acceptance of homosexuality as argument against homosexuality itself.

I take it you'd disagree that parents influence their children's character.

Yes, actually. Beyond the genes they impart, parents have very little influence on the development of their children's character. The three laws of behavioral genetics:

• First Law: All human behavioral traits are heritable. (Heritability is the proportion of variance in a trait that correlates with genetic differences.)
• Second Law: The effect of being raise in the same family is smaller than the effect of genes.
• Third Law: A substantial proportion of the variation in complex human behavioral traits is not accounted for by the effects of genes or families.

Genes 50%, Shared Environment 0%, Unique Environment 50%. Identical twins are 50% similar whether they were reared together or apart. Adoptive siblings are not similar at all. Children don't spend their time learning to be better adults; their primary extra-genetic/social influence is their peers—other kids.

All this is backed up by mounds of peer-reviewed studies. On the general subject, I'd encourage you to read Pinker's The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature. But, you won't. You'll look up a few reviews online that go against it, then claim you know what you're talking about, as you have with others.


I recall that not that long ago I defended you for being intellectually curious and studying things on your own. I'm beginning to regret that, especially since you seem to mostly search out biased information and apply so little critical thought and reason to what you do find and espouse.



EDITS: meh...nothing to do with content

[Phytotron]

But yeah, it's the gays who are screwed up.

[INW]

There is no such thing as a "gay lifestyle." Period.

Yes. That was what the website I linked said.

When I say

Being gay isn't a choice but living the gay lifestyle is.

It means that gays chose to live a "gay lifestyle". Real simple. And the gay lifestyle is the same as anyone else's.

Just making my previous post more clear.

lolz

[ItzAcid]

Before the past year or so, I was the typical " omg gay so bad y u choose dat" kind of guy. After studying it a good bit, in both biology and psychology, i've learned it's quite the opposite. I'm not going to go in depth, since they've covered it, but I truly believe that it is almost entirely, if not fully, nature. One might look at casting down gays as the modern form of slavery, though less extreme. I know it's suprising to hear me take the opposite side of a potentially religious topic, but it is what it is.

There's so much that can be covered making arguments for both sides that it's almost asinine to try and convince someone either way here .


@ Word. I'm not saying your completely wrong or anything. I agree that the lifestyle is a choice, though not living it may make the person miserable. Not sure how to incorporate that in with my religious beliefs at the moment, but i'm working on that. Maybe think of it as a family curse of old? /halfjoke

[Word]

though not living it may make the person miserable.

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me...I never claimed any of that, and the 'gay lifestyle' bit is from INW.

Honestly, this is one of the stupidest posts you've ever made, Word. First, what the hell are you talking about with the parents? Makes no sense. Be specific and back it up

I can't. I didn't intend to back it up because you'd have to know these people yourself. It was an observation out of my personal life (and apparently it was wrong to assume that everyone else on these forums happens to know such people as well). I'd say the same about my grandparents, my parents and me too.

Then, where do you get the rest of that? Have you actually talked to any gay people or asked them? Have you done any unbiased research?

No, but I know them well enough, and their parents. We never talked about anyone's orientation.
I apologize for my lack of biological knowledge in these matters, but I can't help thinking that the parenting they had to deal with played an essential role in their development. I didn't claim that it was a scientific fact (or a philosophical question), just what I think it is based on what I can see.

What problems? You want to "cure" gay people?

No, that's why I added "The same applies for heterosexuality". I was thinking of couple therapists. Or patients with depressions due to unrequited love.

[sinewav]

We never talked about anyone's orientation.

It's not a easy subject to bring up, but that's the first place to start if you want to make informed decisions. I think once you get comfortable talking about sexuality, you'll find that pretty much every gay person you meet always knew they were gay, even when they were little kids well before puberty and sexual interests.

[chrisd]

Well, the thing Cody says is definitely a problem... Some time ago I had more or less the same thing going with a certain well-known tron player. He seems to like to talk with me about the subject of AIDS, how he is NEVER going to get this (as opposed to me, obviously). How his faith is so great. (Fortunately it is one of the fundamental properties of the faith of chrisdianity that only the person chrisd can subscribe to it, so I don't have to run around and tell each and every living soul about it....) Then the "nice discussion" went on with him implying that I was bad company for him and how his faith tells him to seek out good company. This was the point where I was very much feeling like creating a poll to just kick him to help him rid himself of the "bad company" that he was so clearly suffering from.... And, no, I am not joking here..... It was as bad as this....