Ladle 53

[Gonzap]

Drrrramaaaa.

@Spin: your attackers died because they were outnumbered the whole time. We also did a good job pressuring when we had to. We failed holing, but that's nothing new, we prefer cutting anyway Nice amount of excuses tho.

Another thing i'd like to point out was the servers were quite stable on the top side of the brackets, the only server which wasn't stable used to be the best one, mbx. Kyle, MB, any idea why did it happen?

[Word]

Word has turned into an aliased troll who worries far too much about other people's skill, strategies and clans. If you put this much effort into pRu, maybe it wouldn't have died and you could've gotten past opening round sometimes.

I've said all this before:
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... ox#p247874
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... ox#p247937
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... ox#p253485

And by the time I started to 'troll' Hi by saying what INW did (well, it's pretty obvious that we have different opinions whether it was a good def), most people already knew who I was. Not my problem if Hi or someone else shares the entire teamchat on vent or msg and distracts you with it while you're playing.
I can't see what is bad about worrying about strategies and skill. Would you agree with someone who says you're stupid because you're female?

[þsy]

This is becomming a dull and fruitless discussion

[compguygene]

Preventing holes doesn’t change the game, it just slows it down. Beating holes, through better recovery methods or simply increased skill, better sweeping, better playing, seems like an alternative. The result of this would be a more free form game, more organic, essentially a regression to pre-29 fortress. With the amount of sumobar being played, increased comfort with a broken zone seems like a real possibility. Casual fortress seems to be played with a lot of broken zone on both ends of the grid. Could this trickle up to the Ladle?

Drrrramaaaa.

@Spin: your attackers died because they were outnumbered the whole time. We also did a good job pressuring when we had to. We failed holing, but that's nothing new, we prefer cutting anyway Nice amount of excuses tho.

Another thing i'd like to point out was the servers were quite stable on the top side of the brackets, the only server which wasn't stable used to be the best one, mbx. Kyle, MB, any idea why did it happen?

These two posts inspired me to check out the recording of the finals. I have come to one conclusion: CT won playing a very highly skilled pre-Ladle 29 Fortress. Yes, that's right, good old-fashioned sweeping, no sweepbox, take-out-the-attackers and take-the-Fortress. A few Ladles ago, TX won playing a similar, but even more aggressive game. I really think that we may start to see teams abandoning the sweepbox to either be more aggressive, or at least more balanced. I know that many of you view CT's lack of skill at holing to be a major problem for them. Perhaps by focusing on cutting and teamwork to shrink and setup a cut, CT is showing you all another way to win.
Personally, I think that teams that focus on holing and a sweepbox have a strategy that has worked, but they will need to adapt more. I really think that 2 sweepers working effectively to box and kill attackers can be more effective. Think about this, when the sweepbox breaks down, the def is usually left in not as good of a condition as a def with 2 sweepers that lose a sweeper. In a way, the sweepbox reminds me of the classic castles of the 15th to 16th Century. When said castle's walls were broken down by trebuchet or catapults, and their walls breached, it was generally only a question of who would die and how long it would take the attackers to take the castle. If much of the army associated with the castle were in and around the castle at the time, the attackers would take the area, or quite possibly the kingdom.
TX has one many times in the past by having 4 attackers and just a very highly skilled def and sweeper. CT just won a ladle by using very strong and fluid sweeping, and attacking pretty much without holing, just shrinking and cutting. Perhaps this is the new Fortress.

[dreadlord]

Please don't discuss so much now.

I wish more people had listened to this, but I think I am lacking authority, that is why they did not.

[Word]

nothing is wrong with a healty discussion. you don't have to read it.

[dreadlord]

nothing is wrong with a healty discussion. you don't have to read it.

A healthy discussion with partly provocative contents, which will most likely end with a lock or split of the topic? This is no place where you can have it out with others.

[Word]

how's anyone here provocative? (apart from Lizmatic who does the same as usual)

[Hi.dTp]

And by the time I started to 'troll' Hi by saying what INW did (well, it's pretty obvious that we have different opinions where it was good def), most people already knew who I was. Not my problem if Hi or someone else shares the entire teamchat on vent or msg and distracts you with it while you're playing.

i actually didnt say you were doing anything. spin figured that out on his own, must have looked at the recordings or something. in the midst of arguing with you, i was invited to \\mym, so my message went to them. i said sorry, i was defending you spin. thats it, lol

[FoFo]

Grats CT , you guys deserved it , i enjoyed playing against you.

thanks to poke for playing with us.

@gonzy : np you ******

[sinewav]

Perhaps this is the new Fortress.

It's not the new Fortress. CT didn't bring anything magical to the game on Sunday, they just played better than the other teams. That's what has always won Ladle. It's got nothing to do with holing, sweepboxing, or even cutting. Every tactic has a counter-tactic. The team that adapts the quickest wins. In the case of the finals against mYm, there wasn't even a need to adapt since mYm played like total crap, haha. We failed executing everything.

You guys are all so hung up on tactics that you can't see the real reason for CT's victory: Less Mistakes. It's the best they've played in a long time, and I for one am thrilled. I used to get a little depressed when CT struggled in "easy" matches last year. They played solid, and that's what you need to win. I hope they keep winning.

[sufy]

Think about this, when the sweepbox breaks down, the def is usually left in not as good of a condition as a def with 2 sweepers that lose a sweeper.

That's the main downside I've seen to it. Sweeper death becomes more of a problem than it would have been without the sweepbox.

[syllabear]

CT didn't bring anything magical to the game on Sunday, they just played better than the other teams... since mYm played like total crap, haha. We failed executing everything.

To an extent this (Mym didn't play crap, they just played worse than they could have). Mym started off well, and CT not so well (a common theme with CT), but whatever it was, CT started playing better and/or Mym worse.

Would the result have changed if Mym didn't sweepbox? Would it have changed if they had their lineup in a different order? What if they had not submitted 2 teams and instead had a nice amount of subs to fall back on by the finals? Unfortunately, we don't know, and we don't have enough data to know yet. Further, its impossible to know really, testing this kind is very difficult.

What a lot of people are missing though is an interesting fact. I won't say it has any statistical backing, but what I did notice was that TX was losing at first to SP2, when they did normal sweep. Around the same time that TX changed to sweepbox, they started to win (and won).

Versus Pl, TX started off using the sweepbox, and although the first match was very close, we still won. However, part way through the second match? They started normal-sweeping again, and guess what, they won that match.

[AI-team]

You guys are all so hung up on tactics that you can't see the real reason for CT's victory: Less Mistakes. It's the best they've played in a long time, and I for one am thrilled. I used to get a little depressed when CT struggled in "easy" matches last year. They played solid, and that's what you need to win. I hope they keep winning.

this. you guys are acting like a good tactic makes it possible for every team to win ladle, which is just not true.

[INW]

The result would have been different if I was on attack.

I've always played attack in ladles with preservation. There is no need to try and attack the def when you have all those sweepers. Don't even pay attention to the def when there are sweepers alive.

I've never played in a ladle where any team's attack died so quickly.

May I also add, mym is a tactical team. There are players and teams out there with more "skill" than us but our strats and team work out weigh most.