Mb53's server: changes and improvement

[Word]

I understand that, but you know - not all players thought the changes G5 made were good. The server used to be open for all until the same players who moved to pickup anyway began to complain.
And this debate isn't new - I can't see how you balance it that way. Playing with some noobs can be challenging too, and playing with a pure 'pro team' can be extremely predictable (and the time someone has played often doesn't say anything about the talent...). Taking away this final limit causes more nongrinders, but in the long run also more good players to 'compensate' the rest.

There are newbies would join your server and no matter how ease it would be they will still not stay for awhile due to other matters such as their personal reasons or how other people treat them.

Many players here that began to play fort in 2008 or earlier were used to it, and most handled all this without complaining much - but they also didn't protest when the limits were introduced and made it easier for them. We all somehow got through this, but now most newbies already fail before that.

(And the entire tron community keeps growing, it's only fort that doesn't seem to benefit from it and in my opinion grows even less than it used to - but I don't have a convincing statistic to back that up of course. The game is as popular as it always has been so the problem must be something else.)

Z-Man's post is a strong reason for optimism though

[Word]

As arguable as some of the contributes in the splitted part of this thread were, their sheer existence expresses that something in fort doesn't work as it should.

The problem isn't socializing (or that it's impossible in fort to suck up to the pros to feel better) or competing (or comparing dick lengths to feel better).

I'm going to address some of it but keep it free of flaming (so don't misunderstand that, please)

Wait, MB's server has competition? That for me proves that you never play there because with 9v9 it's an unorganized fuckfest on the grid. Infact, that server has so little competition for me that I see little joy in it. Hence why I prefer pickup, because it's more organized and competitive.

That is exactly why I'm for changing auto_team to 1. When G5 added auth as a requirement the same players that caused the mess just registered here and played on, thus changing it back again wouldn't have any effect apart from more growth. I'd hope that pickups wouldn't harm the on-going games as much anymore. MB's will always be a mess, as long as it's 'mega'. On the other side this mess is the ideal place to get better because 9v9 means up to 9 options per round to get a kill and improve a small bit.

And one more time: I believe that the lack of significant growth is the real reason some clans feel like they're slowly bleeding out. So where do we get the fresh blood? This is what concerns us the most.
Obviously, that's where the anti-elitism comes from. If ID, una or we would get as many (promising) applications as SP and CT get per week together and win the next 5 ladles, I'm sure nobody would complain here. It's just feeling unfair, even if it isn't. This problem wouldn't exist with more forters.

Arilou, Compguy and Nelhybel, you are (and always were) a part of this community like everyone else. You also aren't a minority. Almost all decisions about Ladle rules were made democratically. If you have convincing reasons to change certain things (the seeding system?) you can post them, at the risk of getting outvoted because these arguments weren't sufficient, you know that.
I never saw one of your members getting insulted by some 'fort elite member' (in fact it was always the other way round and it seems strange that there aren't any complaints here...).
And if it's not a bottomless accusation then you'd be surprised how often the fort elite members insult themselves and have forgotten it ten minutes later. I've seen you and your members moan about the ladle rules, clanhoppers, the ladle winners (I can't think of any player who hasn't done that once) - but as soon as you reach the point where you could explain your anger you're saying something along these lines:

'Oh, you all are trolls/troublemakers/the elite and hate us anyway, no point to discuss this, let us lick our wounds. I want to save some hysteria for next month. You all take this game too seriously! Everything was better in 2008. And by the way, you all wouldn't be good without us. As soon as someone is rebellious and tells you that you're full of crap (without having presented, discussed and backed up any argument for his opinion) he gets declassed!' ...and rightly so - self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you want to prove that wrong you'd have get more involved. You know that too, so I believe the only reason you still don't is that you like it as it is and enjoy that gibberish, even if you don't admit it. See it as a challenge in a field where you could easily overtop the elite if you were willing to do so.

The 'fort elite' is only guilty of approving your sense of self (the proud underdogs that are so laid back that it's strange how everyone else is said to hate you), which usually wouldn't be bad.




(As sine said it's just a minor detail what happens with auto_team, especially now that Z-Man said there will be some new notification for it. There's not a single profound insight in this post but I thought it should be said...)

edit: err...ugh...deleted some adverbs...

[Kijutsu]

As arguable as some of the contributes in the splitted part of this thread were, their sheer existence expresses that something in fort doesn't work as it should.

The problem isn't socializing (or that it's impossible in fort to suck up to the pros to feel better) or competing (or comparing dick lengths to feel better).

I'm going to address some of it but keep it free of flaming (so don't misunderstand that, please)

Wait, MB's server has competition? That for me proves that you never play there because with 9v9 it's an unorganized fuckfest on the grid. Infact, that server has so little competition for me that I see little joy in it. Hence why I prefer pickup, because it's more organized and competitive.

That is exactly why I'm for changing auto_team to 1.

I fail to see what that has to do with anything. How would there be more competition with that command enabled?

I was dead serious in my comment and I'm not sure why it was part of the split, maybe fortress isn't that enjoyable to many people? Like I said, you'll barely see me play casual fort because it's not fun, to me. We would have growth coming from other gamemodes and we do, actually, but it may be a bit steep because fort isn't for everyone.

[Word]

well, we now know the command itself doesn't change anything - soon everyone knows how to join. I say we will experience more competition then because in regular games I find it more challenging to play with a mixed team that may include a nongrinder than playing with a 'perfect' ladle roster where everyone knows what to do. I like situations where you have more random maneuvers that lead to different outcomes, since new players always try to react accordingly, but not always perfectly. It's part of what made the better players understand teamwork and distinguish them from the mass of 'skilled' players. I like that unorganized fuckfest, because it makes good players less replaceable and at the same time evokes the noobs ambitions to get just as good, because it's not as exclusive as pickups and you're both part of the same team - there's no you-are-the-elite-and-we-suck feeling and by trying your best there you also display some kind of solidarity with the noobs (that shouldn't be one's main reason to play there though...).

[sinewav]

Ok, let's stop all this nonsense that "Fort is going to die" and "no new people play" and "blue team is better than gold team", etc... Look at the numbers. I've attached a chart of Ladles and team size (incomplete due to the wiki being down, but that would just make the data stronger). I bet if you look at the peaks and valleys and correlate them to posts on this forum you'll get matching threads of enthusiasm and worry.

Notice the major jump in team numbers.* It happened just after L-15. Right about that time there was a deep sense of apathy toward Ladle. Ramping up to the Bowl (L-22), we had Concord's incredible drive to promote Fortress here and on the PlayFortress blog. Naturally, there was a deep burn-out afterwards and it wasn't until Ladle reached the 30's with Speeders domination that things picked up again (new enthusiasm about tactics, possibilities, etc...).

Every step of the way shows growth. You can't have growth without new players. They are here and they are ready. So let's just shut up and play!


*I know team size changed at that point, but going from 8 to 6 still doesn't account for the sizable increase.

[syllabear]

I really don't understand a few of compguy's points from the other thread.

1) Fortress/sumo isn't social
2) Games are supposed to be fun

For the first point, I would request your presence in fortress servers (namely MB's) around the european times of high activitiy. Apart from myself, I notice there are many other players chatting constantly about all kinds of rubbish every day, ranging from cooking, how their days were, personal incidents, all the way to extremely crude and rude "would you rather" scenarios, which I won't repeat here.

I don't want to speak outside my knowledge, but I think it has been an increasing trend recently, and in fact, the european fortress community, for all our feuds, is probably starting to become as close as it was back in the day where it was just a few people (and thus, easier to be more "like a family").

The second point can easily be illustrated using the game from my namesake. Defence of the Ancients (DOTA) is now a fully fledged game with a second release (imaginatively named DOTA 2). For anyone here who has played one of the many incarnations of this game, they will know the extent of the socialising in these games is limited to one-word congratulations: "gz, gg" etc. or name-calling/similar derogatory insults. Yet despite this, it has risen to become one of the most popular games out there, even inspiring others to copy its own style. This proves there is no need for a social or community aspect for a game (not saying its not a good thing, just saying you don't NEED it for 'success')

In my opinion, the real problem with fortress servers at the moment is that everyone will try in play in one of 3 servers: Empha's sumo bar usually fills up first, and then someone will call to play fortress. If they're successful, a segment of those 10+ people will move to fort, and are joined by others, while even more who would rather play sumo will join emphas. At this point you can have upwards to 18 people in fort and 10 in sumobar. Eventually someone might call for a tst or fort pickup, which then usually takes enough players from one or both servers, and eventually enough people stop playing the pickup so that the original servers are repopulated.

What I feel is the main problem here, is too many people in MB's. 18-22 is far too many, you could easily have 2 very fun games going along, making 3 full servers in the sumo-fort genre.

I suggest instead limiting the spots in MBs to 7v7 with 2 spectators (:O) and agreeing unoffciailly as a community where to go if it is full for other fortress games. I also propose we try our best to keep both games populated, so if you come online and notice MBs has 15 players (thus 1 spot and 2 spectator spots) while the other server has maybe 9 players (and would benefit from 6 or more additional) you should go for the one with 9. With these actions, I believe we could have more fun games (what liz crudely conveys about the 9v9s is fairly true I believe) and potentially draw more players into fortress.

[Word]

Every step of the way shows growth. You can't have growth without new players. They are here and they are ready. So let's just shut up and play!

I'm not saying that fortress doesn't grow (or is going to die). It's just more difficult to get a good team than it used to be. The graph shows the number of teams that signed up, right? i doubt it says a lot about the actual number of players these teams had (and how good these players are). I don't want more growth because I'm nostalgic. Count the good players that are inactive or left their team and how many of these teams were able to find a replacement (off the top of my head, because the wiki is down: Hoax, dreadlord, Xyron, Titan, Mkay, Oma, slash, Vanhayes, Mazuffer, olive, the entire DS clan, Garial, Ham, Six. All of them are still around but what's with the rest? I just feel like we have 6 or 7 zombie teams soon, and 3 good ones)

[sinewav]

Interesting Word. Well, it definitely see some changes to Fortress landscape. One recent change seems to be the death of "super-teams;" those who regularly submit 2 squads per Ladle. Does this change the concentration of top players? Is that good or bad? (I phrase those statements as questions because I honestly have no clue.) Also, I feel like we are seeing another new wave of players coming from other backgrounds (the teams Tronners, H8D, etc...). VcL is back and slowly getting stronger, more active. (I'm partially speaking out of my ass here because I don't know a lot about these players, these are just my observations.)

So, let's say we do wind up with 3 good teams and a bunch of zombies. Could this actually benefit Fortress and keep people more engaged? Think about it a second: Having a small number of deadly teams makes it easier for more players to have balanced opening rounds and progress further in the bracket (before eventually getting licked by a sure winner).

Here is another possible benefit: If more good players leave the game, that surely means the gap between Fort-god and n00b shrinks. Wouldn't that ultimately be a good thing? I guess ideally the gap shrinks because n00bs get better, not good players quitting, but you know, whatever, haha.

Disclaimer: Everything above is not very well thought out.

[þsy]

Those are all good points sine and word. I think the de-authentication of MB53s is a big step towards encouraging new players into the fortress community. Pickup has dropped (from my observations) and a few players are pro-actively boycotting it, which is keeping life in the public servers a little bit more than it was before.

And as has been suggested, the cycle seems to always continue. Clans come and go, and the potential is always there to be one of the best: mYm are reasonably newly formed, and are now one of the strongest contenders for the ladle and pL are a group of fastly improving tronners, who could potentially be one of the strongest teams in a short while

[Titanoboa]

Syllabear, your post was well thought out and spot on. I can confirm #1 and for #2 i haven't played DotA much but I'd be surprised if a DotA player disagreed.

What I feel is the main problem here, is too many people in MB's. 18-22 is far too many, you could easily have 2 very fun games going along, making 3 full servers in the sumo-fort genre.

I suggest instead limiting the spots in MBs to 7v7 with 2 spectators (:O) and agreeing unoffciailly as a community where to go if it is full for other fortress games. I also propose we try our best to keep both games populated, so if you come online and notice MBs has 15 players (thus 1 spot and 2 spectator spots) while the other server has maybe 9 players (and would benefit from 6 or more additional) you should go for the one with 9. With these actions, I believe we could have more fun games (what liz crudely conveys about the 9v9s is fairly true I believe) and potentially draw more players into fortress.

I've had these thoughs for a long time, (do you guys remember when Tx (and R for a while) had new york fortress?) back then it was What I feel is the main problem here, is too many people in DS Mega Fortress. 18-26 is far too many, you could easily have 2 very fun games going along, making 3 full servers in the sumo-fort genre.

Our fortress player base could easily grow (there's enough people) with a proper platform, we're just not allowing ourselves to expand into several servers, at least not as much as we could.

Here's a solution, and we don't even have to limit it to 7v7.
I dare ourselves to try this for one month: 8v8, max_clients 20... in two servers but with the same name. We have enough players to fill them up and if the name (and everything else) is the same, we won't get a favorite one where everyone plays that is "better", but everyone's free to choose one of the two. Naturally, some players are gonna stick together but I think we can manage anyway.
(MB can host both servers and I think he will if we request it together)

(our problem as always though, is that we don't take steps forward because we won't see instant results. this is a challenge though and it'll pay off)

[epsy]

I dare ourselves to try this for one month: 8v8, max_clients 20... in two servers but with the same name.

I entirely support this idea but however, even in pickup, this did not work in the past. I hope this breaks the trend.

[sinewav]

I dare ourselves to try this for one month: 8v8, max_clients 20... in two servers but with the same name.

I entirely support this idea but however, even in pickup, this did not work in the past. I hope this breaks the trend.

One reason why it doesn't work (or hasn't yet?) is that we really are a tight-knit community. When we see a MegaFort match going on we all want to be there because it's like a big party.* No one wants to leave the big party and make two smaller ones; you'll inevitably leave some of your favorite people behind.

<insanity>

Please entertain this next crazy idea I have. What if it's possible, when x-number of people want to play Fort, we can have something like a mini-pickup-tournament? If there are 20 people hanging out in a Fort server, I'm thinking that's 2x5v5. What if there was a way to easily break the players into 4 teams of equal size, and have matches of somewhat equal length, and an event that's short enough for the uncommitted but long enough to make people feel satisfied?

Here's another wacky idea. What if there were a voting mechanism in MegaFort where full a full server of people can voluntarily switch to 4-Team Fort? 9v9 with 2 spectator slots is almost a 4x5 anyway. 4-Team Fort is so seriously fun and underplayed too.

</insanity>


*The tight-knit party analogy is ironically similar to gene "the dissenter" 's view that Fort is an exclusive club and he's not invited. Not true. He just needs to show up with booze and babes once in a while. Also, this is funny to me: -=}DIssent<.

[Titanoboa]

One reason why it doesn't work (or hasn't yet?) is that we really are a tight-knit community. When we see a MegaFort match going on we all want to be there because it's like a big party.

You're right. I too think that's one of the main reasons we're still playing in one server even though we're a growing [fortress] community. It's a barrier we need to break if we want to proceed. That's why it's a challenge.

<insanity>...</insanity>

I like both your suggestions as usual but I don't see them working out in practice. But you said it yourself, they're crazy ideas ^^

[Word]

it didn't work when we had G5's and MB's at the same time. People stilled played in G5's because they always did, not because they were worried about the dispersion of the fort population. And I'm against reducing the number of players because we have enough ladle servers with 6v6 - and only one mega server 'to let off steam'. I think we'd lose something here...the result will be that everyone goes to the full server, gets annoyed by the long waiting times and plays something other than fort. then it makes more sense to play pickup.

[Titanoboa]

Or we can learn from the past and try to move forward. Since you were there to see the problems you can help with the solution now!
8v8 isn't that small anyway, it's quite a big fort game, just not as ridiculous as 9v9