Rule Clarification

[owned]

I remember us having a discussion about what the following rule meant last ladle:

Players listed on the Challenge Board are not allowed to switch or join another team under any circumstances in the hour before opening rounds.

Does this mean that while we can't switch players in the hour before, we can during the ladle? Also, does it mean that if someone is not currently listed on the challenge board, that they can be added in the hour before or during the ladle?

[sinewav]

Does this mean that while we can't switch players in the hour before, we can during the ladle?

No, because if you switch during Ladle then that player will have played for 2 teams.

I see what you are saying though, it is a little unclear. I remember we recently had a discussion about substitutes, which led to the rule following this questionable one:

• "Substitutes may be added until the start of the semi-finals. After the semi-finals begin, a team needs the approval of the opponent to add a substitute."

By their nature, a substitute does not need to be listed on the Challenge Board. It's usually the case where a team is short a player (or one has to leave early) and sub is needed. But regarding the hour before Ladle; I'm going to go clear that up now. The intention of this rule was to effectively lock the Challenge Board completely. After Ladle starts, all the other rules make sense (no switching, adding subs...). Here, how about this very slight rewording:

• "Players listed on the Challenge Board are not allowed to join or switch teams under any circumstances in the hour before opening rounds. The Challenge Board is effectively locked until Ladle starts, after which changes may be made to reflect actual playing situations (scores, server changes, substitutes, no shows)."

[PokeMaster]

sounds clear to me.

[owned]

Does this mean that while we can't switch players in the hour before, we can during the ladle?

No, because if you switch during Ladle then that player will have played for 2 teams.

But the player might not have played by then. Could he/she still switch teams before the semifinals?

[sinewav]

But the player might not have played by then. Could he/she still switch teams before the semifinals?

Ah, I see where you are going with this. Player 1 is signed up for Team-Awesome (A-squad), a full team, but actually plays for Team-Awesome (B-squad) since they are short a player.

Tricky question! Let's try to interpret it together keeping in mind that the current rules are written to discourage team switching. These are the main points we need to worry about:

1. Players can not be signed up under multiple teams.
2. You may only play for one team each Ladle.
3. After the brackets have been set a Team Leader may change a maximum of two players per team.

So, If I were to make a judgement I would say Player 1 can play for the other team if it can be proven that they have not yet played. I would even go far enough to say Player 2 could also switch to another team if they have not yet played. While it's a bit irregular, it gives teams freedom (good) without being able to abuse the system by switching an entire team (bad).

However, the regulations are also written in a way that imply that once you sign up for a team, you really need to stick with it. I don't think Player 1 should be switching teams if he is a Team Leader!

One solution is to have the A-squad and B-squad sign up the 4 most reliable members (Team Leader +3), which is the minimum requirement for a team. All secondary members can fill in as substitutes.

It's really a tough question and I would like everyone's input. Good catch owned. Let's all try and agree on a solution and write it in.

[PokeMaster]

I started thinking about this exact situation a few days ago, but more from the point of view of purposely having subs signed up for two teams. Would it be wrong to have a player signed up for two (clearly related*) teams as a sub, so that they may go wherever needed if a player is short?

My example is:

Team 1 (7 mains, sub A)
Team 2 (6 mains, sub A)

If all 7 mains show for team 1, but only 6 show for team 2, then sub A will want to play for team 2. Of course, once a sub has played for a team, he/she shouldn't be allowed to switch thereafter.

This would be fair in my opinion, but I see it as an expansion of the current rules, not a reinterpretation. Maybe we should vote on it next quarter.

* I mean clearly related in the sense that two teams were formed by the same clan/team/people (as in CT alpha and CT beta are clearly related)

[sinewav]

I just don't think there is any reason to list sub-A at all since they can drop in after Ladle starts using the substitute rule. Adding them to the Board just makes things confusing. And, you're pretty much talking about the reason we wrote the rules in the first place - which is - the idea that large clans have interchangeable members across teams. This should not be. Large, multi-team groups should not have an advantage over smaller, single teams. Go ahead and refresh your memory regarding L-36.

[Desolate]

Just to make sure, once a substitute has entered the tournament and played for a team, they are allowed to play for that team semi-finals and beyond? Or do they still need the opposing team's permission at that point?

[Titanoboa]

Yeah if they enter the tournament before the semi-finals, they're allowed to play throughout the tourney.

[Lackadaisical]

I just don't think there is any reason to list sub-A at all since they can drop in after Ladle starts using the substitute rule.

A reason would be that the person would be able to substitute in either one of the teams even after the semi finals.

[sinewav]

I just don't think there is any reason to list sub-A at all since they can drop in after Ladle starts using the substitute rule.

A reason would be that the person would be able to substitute in either one of the teams even after the semi finals.

Again, this is still a case where a large group takes advantage of their size to move players around. It's exactly the kind of thing we are trying to limit.

I understand how frustrating this is. Once a clan/team reaches a certain size, then you are left the decision "should we enter 2 teams?" You don't want anyone to miss out. You don't want to affect the flow of the game with substitutions. You don't want to create internal tension by saying "good players on the a-squad, not as good on the b-squad." (My own team is going through this right now).

But all of this should be decided on a team level. I'm not sure Ladle should be accommodating large, successful teams. Perhaps we really are at a point where we need to look into splitting Ladle into conferences or divisions? What do we do?

[Concord]

lest we forget that the opponent has the ability to deny them the substitute

[sinewav]

Hey, I was thinking about this while driving around this morning. Are there any professional sports set up to allow teams to switch players in competition, kind of like we are capable of doing in Ladle? If we study their tournament model maybe we can learn something about ours, and how we can add more freedom and flexibility to our game? How do we bridge the gap between small teams and super teams?

[Mkay1]

This reminds me of strong or loose construction of the US constitution... of wait I mean Ladle rules.

Hmmm, Will tron = USA someday? I am getting eerily similar vibes.