Armagetron Class in school!

[compguygene]

John D. Rockefeller said that, not Nelson Rockefeller. I should appreciate your showing me a source that describes John Rockefeller's defining school curriculum.

Forgive the mistake.

I do agree that at a local and regional level, lots of teachers, adminstrators, and others care a great deal for the education of the children. Quite frankly, I think that the kids many times get a decent education because of this, in spite of the defined curriculum.

[Cosmic Dolphin]

One has to ask, especially in American schools, why standards change so much? I mean, I went to a school in the middle of a cow pasture, had no air conditioning, a heating system that was 60 some years old, the only restrooms were in the basement (which flooded every rain.) It was the best school I could go to because it was the only school I could go...until I was home-schooled. Then, I got into college classes younger than usual. What Mkay describes is non-existent when you live in rural America. (Although, I do have some great memories of the cows messing up the school day. See if any of you city kids ever get that!)

I look at these big city schools with new textbooks, labs and all this great stuff. It's what my cousins went to, and they are ungrateful for it...They have no idea how privileged they are.

Yes, we have made advancements in curriculum, but those advancements are nowhere near even.

[boobert]

People should be aware that these college level and AP courses you are all taking are complete crap. College level does not mean anything anymore. AP courses are just another reason to segregate kids and squeeze a little more money out of their families. You're still going to take a whole bunch of classes that cost a whole lot of money. If you think you're going to graduate early, you better be planning on taking summer AND winter courses. You think you're doing a lot of work, but any extra work is only to compensate for the stupid poeple in your class that need good grades but are "bad test takers." You mean you can't answer questions without the information right on front of you? Or you need to copy it from a book/friend? That's why homework is worth so much in a lot of classes. In rich areas with "blue ribbon" high schools and private schools they just decide(for no apparent reason) that a child has a learning disability like A.D.D. and they are given extra time to take tests. These people then are judged as "fairly" as their "peers" and tada! College is filled with stupid, rich pricks. Talented and gifted programs, AP classes and the like are a crock. Information is information. Some just costs more money.

I also realize that a lot of systems are based on standardized testing. In NYS we have the regents exams. Until a class takes the regents exams, learning is essentially put on hold. The entire class is geared around one test. These tests are not very difficult and ask the same questions every year. The teachers will even tell students that. You just sit and take practice tests in which the order of the questions barely changes. They are all multiple choice. Some tests have essays at the end. Not sure how these are graded because in college most people can't write a paragraph properly using a program that performs spellcheck and grammar check and automatically capitalises and indents for them. Don't take my word for it. Go anywhere at anytime and you will see someone so stupid you wonder how they can function at all. Usually a college graduate.

Finland was recently decided by the world to have the best system for education. They do not start until they are 7, there is no homework, they are required to do physical activity and the students are not segregated into "talented and gifted" programs. Smarter students are encouraged to help the others who are having trouble. By 7th grade they are learning at least 2 languages and they call their teachers by their first names. Classrooms also typically have 2-3 teachers.

Can anyone tell me why being involved in the Key Club or Model U.N. or other extracurricular activities (including sports) should be on a college application and have any bearing whatsoever on who gets accepted?

College=money=debt=obedient soldiers(touched on before a bit i think)

My 200 cents.

[LucK]

Er I don't think he was talking about AP being for college credits. I am pretty sure he was talking about dual enrollment. You go to school 2 periods and then you go to a college campus and take college courses. Towards the end of the school day you return to your high school. You start doing dual enrollment in 11th grade until u graduate which means 2 years of college. So when you graduate and go to college it counts towards your college. You don't pay for AP classes btw(well at least where I live.) You are correct information is information but not all information is at the same quality as others.

I do have negative feeling towards our school system though. I feel like it is more geared on the ability to follow directions than it is to actually educate students.

P.S. Before you start to criticize people who can't use spell check you should check your own spelling.

[Jonathan]

Don't compare an occasional typo in a forum post to producing mistakes in a pipeline.

[LucK]

Don't compare an occasional typo in a forum post to producing mistakes in a pipeline.

Yea but when you are calling "poeple" stupid you should try to spell people right.

[Mecca]

There is no excuse for complaining about how people are not capable of making use of the spell check feature while making spelling errors, especially when there is a spell check feature built into the "Post a reply" interface (if that is the right word), LOL!

About paying for AP classes, Luck, I think you have to pay for the AP test, which is what gets you the college credits (if you score high enough).

@boobert: You said in college you will have to take a lot of classes that will cost a lot of money. Why is it so bad to take AP classes and try to decrease the amount of classes you will take and the amount of money you will spend?

I don't only "bitch" at Phytotron; stop bitching at me.

[Phytotron]

Don't compare an occasional typo in a forum post to producing mistakes in a pipeline.

Yea but when you are calling "poeple" stupid you should try to spell people right.

1) A typo is not the least bit equivalent to an actual misspelling.

2) "Yes, but when you are calling 'poeple' stupid, you should try to spell people correctly."

3) Boobert didn't "[complain] about how people are not capable of using spell check." Reread, comprehend. His point was that some of these kids can't even write a proper paragraph despite "using a program that performs spellcheck and grammar check and automatically capitalises and indents for them."

I do have negative feeling towards our school system though. I feel like it is more geared on the ability to follow directions than it is to actually educate students.

NCLB and the state-developed programs that were its models can be thanked for that. Teach to the test, learn little.

One has to ask, especially in American schools, why standards change so much?

Assuming that by "change" you really intended "vary," you subsequently answered your own question. Public school funding is derived from property taxes from the area in which they're located. The more affluent the area, the more resources available for facilities (and I don't mean hi-tech stuff), materials, up-to-date texts, teachers (and the per student ratio), etc., and vice versa.

[Titanoboa]

FYI: Sweden's school system is about the same as you mentioned about Finland's (atleast 10 years ago when I was 7 years old) with the exception that we do not learn Finnish and Swedish, but Swedish and (a lil' later, being 8-9 years old) English. (Mind you, very basic English. Colors, animals, counting and stuff like that, but that counts right?)

However, as soon as grades enter the picture (We start with grades in the 8th grade, that's when we're 14 years old) things start to change. And by the 9th grade (last mandatory school year in Sweden) they teach for the tests, more and more. I'm in my 12th year of school and they teach for the tests almost exclusively.

Reading this thread has made me start thinking, and I think grades suck. Atleast the way it looks today.
Optimal system in my opinion would be if the job applications had a test to see who knows enough, rather than the schools having those tests. (Of course tests would still exist in school, but rather for the students to see what they've learnt than for grading them).
That way, schools would naturally focus on teaching the students as much important/useful information as they possibly could.

Feel free to say my idea is stupid if you think so.. I've never discussed it with anyone so I might be missing some things.

Edit: it most probably is missing a lot of valid points. =]

[Cosmic Dolphin]

One has to ask, especially in American schools, why standards change so much?

Assuming that by "change" you really intended "vary," you subsequently answered your own question. Public school funding is derived from property taxes from the area in which they're located. The more affluent the area, the more resources available for facilities (and I don't mean hi-tech stuff), materials, up-to-date texts, teachers (and the per student ratio), etc., and vice versa.

My question actually was not why; I have known that. It was why are we letting it continue that way? I am guessing I should learn to be more precise.

[Word]

Cool now we have another debate about the entire system

Finland was recently decided by the world to have the best system for education.

Good post, but if you're referring to PISA, that part is total crap. The questions and guidelines were mostly based on squishy things; for example the athmosphere, the class size etc.
First off, not every country has the same presuppositions Finland has (and apart from that i have the impression the few people from Finland I met so far weren't that well-educated...).

They do not start until they are 7, there is no homework, they are required to do physical activity and the students are not segregated into "talented and gifted" programs.

In Germany, we used to have a trinomial system (i've already posted something about that on Ww forums, a year ago). It would be a solid one, but the state doesn't have enough money. The objective of today's education is to create holistic human beings, not specialists.
Nevertheless, employers should be able to differentiate between academics and craftsmen, so I see segregation as something positive as long as it's based on valid reasons (activity during the lessons, general knowledge, behaviour, talents).

Smarter students are encouraged to help the others who are having trouble

It's a total misbelief that everyone profits from that. Maybe I'm a traumatized solitary case, but if my teacher had 'encouraged' me to help a hopeless case (yes, these people exist!) I would feel responsible and it would have got me down since it was my fault that he couldn't pass a test.

...and they call their teachers by their first names. Classrooms also typically have 2-3 teachers.

Not sure if you know about that, but the same (!) teachers who have tried to reform our education system by improving the relationship between student and schoolmaster are currently involved in the biggest scandal of child abuse we ever had (after WW II). All these schools are catholic and as such they are, in fact, filled with stupid, rich pricks.
Teachers (my father, for instance) had to take part in continued education on a regular basis, just to get to know the latest educational nonsense whose strongest advocates these people were. What the hell is so bad about a certain distance and respect?

The thing which finishes our education system off is the funding of supposedly highly gifted people. Truth be told, most of them are just hyperactive, talentless idiots with deluded parents (and it really rankles me that I was never asked to show some of the crap i produced at the age of 6 )

[MaZuffeR]

Finland was recently decided by the world to have the best system for education. They do not start until they are 7, there is no homework, they are required to do physical activity and the students are not segregated into "talented and gifted" programs. Smarter students are encouraged to help the others who are having trouble. By 7th grade they are learning at least 2 languages and they call their teachers by their first names. Classrooms also typically have 2-3 teachers.

Some exaggerations/misconceptions here. While it is true that we start school at 7, or the year one turns 7 to be exact, there is a year of pre-school before that, though mostly just for learning to sit still and be quiet . There is some homework, not a lot, mostly just going over what you were supposed to learn during the lessons, you can skip most of it if you pay attention (I know from experience ). 'Required to do a physical activity', eh, what? [citation needed] (We have P.E. in the same way most countries do)

About the language education: I started learning Finnish (I'm a Swedish-speaking Finn) in 3rd grade and English in 4th or 5th. The students who were good at Finnish, usually those who had a Finnish-speaking parent, started learning English earlier. Finnish-speaking Finns start learning Swedish in the 7th grade, not sure when they start learning English. Some students will start learning another language in 8th or 10th grade, I think German, French and Russian are the most popular ones.

Of course we call our teachers by their first names, at my university we even call the professors by their first names. 2-3 teachers per classroom is a bit of a misconception, from what I understand there is usually 1 teacher and 0-2 assistants. When I went to school there was only a teacher.

Also, only about half of the students go to upper secondary school (roughly equivalent to high school) after the 9th grade, the other half goes to vocational school, where the main focus is on a specific profession, wikipedia has a nice list of basic categories of education.

And, of course, all education in Finland is virtually free of charge, including universities.

[Mecca]

My question actually was not why; I have known that. It was why are we letting it continue that way? I am guessing I should learn to be more precise.

Making a massive change in the education system would require way more resources than it's worth. Teaching towards tests is a good way to get as many kids in and out of school as quickly as possible. Not every student wants to learn; so teaching them to take a test that gets them out of school is the best idea. If a student really wants to learn, they can find more information on their own.

[Tank Program]

'Required to do a physical activity', eh, what? [citation needed] (We have P.E. in the same way most countries do)

From my time in a school in Finland, I don't even remember doing PE. I could have entirely blocked it from my memory because it didn't stand out at all, but I really don't think we did it. (This was in the 2nd half of 8th grade.) At the point I was there virtually everyone was trilingual in Finnish, Swedish, and English within my program. I don't think everyone learned English. Everything else was the same as Maz described it there.

It's always sort of cracked me up that in the Swedish system you can't fail and can't be held back. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but having come from the US system it sort of tickles my sense of humor.

[boobert]

Yeah I had a bit of a late night rant. Sorry i mispelled a word, but writing "u should check ur own spelling" and the like doesn't do much for me. This is not an attack and never was. LucK, I don't know who he is so the first sentence in your post confuses me. And I did TRY to spell people correctly. It was a rant. But anyway.

@mecca
I think the idea of getting college credits early works only in theory. Most AP credits work only for a single institution affiliated with the high school and/or work as transfer credits. So you could take 6 AP classes and find out the school you decide to attend accepts 2 of them. Kind of like earning 100 credits at one school then transferring leaves you with 2 more years instead of a semester. It's a bit of a scam. Some credits only work if you go to a specific school, no exceptions. I've seen a lot of people pack their schedules with Ap classes and graduate in 3 years. But they also are taking 18 credit schedules at university along with summer and winter courses. That's just to get out in 3 years. (I'm sure there are exceptions.) College is a business and students are assets. They want their money and they will get it.
I have to disagree with the idea that you can put a price tag on a good education. Where should our resources go? Overhaul is necessary and money should be put into it. Even our slaveholding forefathers were open to the idea of reform. Frequent reform at that.

@Word
I am not sure if it was PISA. I said "the world" because I couldn't remember. I still can't. I'll look it up if anyone is still interested but I'm firewalled at work atm. (Forums work great though) I understand that Finland is a much smaller and older country but it is not a bad model to go by. We could learn a thing or 2 from them. That goes for a lot of European countries. Germany has apparently made you more capable to read/write English than most Americans I know. Maybe the uneducated Fins you know were cast out and that's how they deal with them. As far as hopeless cases go, it's true there are a lot. Although I don't know why you seem so stressed about it.
I've tutored in a few subjects and have come across people who just don't get it. Some things cannot be taught, only learned. However, I had a couple of "breakthroughs," for want of a better word, after trying to put things into terms people can understand. I think that's where a lot of that value lies. Teaching, patience and communication can also be learned skills.
About the scandals, unless you're referring to the Catholic church I am unaware of any Germany-specific scandals but would be interested to hear about it.

@mazuffer
You also speak very fine English. I did get a decent amount wrong about your system but I don' think I was TOO far off. Thank you for clearing up a lot of things. The thing in your post I was most drawn to was the cost of schooling. That's quite a nice system. America's system is based on loans from banks and other companies in amounts upwards of $100,000. (Way upwards for some and I cannot convert to Euros ) State schools in New York are getting swamped with applications year after year for their $15,000 per year price tag. That's cheap over here. Private schools are doubling and tripling up smaller dormitories so they can rake in the revenue without really holding up their end so to speak. (Prospective freshman be warned.) People will argue about taxes but nothing can get done without them. What we have is not working.
I have no citation about physical activity I only went by what I heard. Cross country skiing as a required activity is what I was hearing as an example. I brought it up because somehow a budget cut in America results in a lot of schools cutting down on recess time. That bothers me. Kids aren't machines and need breaks along with a little social time and calorie burning. PE is about as mandatory in the states as washing fruit before you eat it. People have all kinds of excuses. Gym is just a class that doesn't affect GPA here, so getting a stern talking to just to get your 65 (passing grade usually) is quite all right and all too commonplace.

I love writing long posts and using all these smilies. Spellychecky for me LucK?