Post-Ladle 30 Tactics Discussion

[apparition]

It's been a few days since Ladle 30 and people are still hot about it. Most of the discussion is about the specific defensive and offensive tactics employed by SP that won them the Ladle. I've heard them described as cheap, noobish, taboo, boring, annoying, safe, effective, and my personal favorite: numb.

The thing that really gets to me is how overflowing with seemingly shameless pride SP is right now. What are they so proud about?! It's gotten so bad that whenever the discussion comes up around them they are starting to say things like "you didn't have the skill to beat us", and today someone from SP even mentioned "win a ladle and I'll listen to what you have to say". I think their reactions indicate that they might feel a little ashamed of being the first team to shamelessly dominate using the tactics they employed. However, someone had to do it eventually right? We've all known about hiding and holing for a long time... I feel like the Ladle has been on the cusp of sinking to this level for a long time.

I feel that, like their defense, SP is hiding in plain sight right now. Let's just get this out there. Using a completely closed and hidden defensive tactic and using holing as a primary offensive tactic is effective and won them the Ladle!

But does SP's win truly embody what the Ladle represents? Are all Ladles going to be won by the team who uses the best closed defense and the best holes? I can tell you one thing, Plus does not think that. SP's tactics are nothing special and while they have skilled players, this win didn't demonstrate that. It was like Capture the Flag fortress style. And maybe that's the direction the Ladle is going in.

A few players today spoke of what's most important in these competitions: teamwork, skill, organization, fun. That's cool; I'm all about sportsmanship and healthy competition. But even more, I think it's awesome when people get angry about this stuff because it makes the competition more aggressive and interesting - just like how real world sports rivalries are so interesting and entertaining. That's why today when I finally broke into ~*insa*~'s closed def I congratulated myself by making fun of him

I'm talking to all of you/us: Unk, CT, TX, Pru, ID, open teams, SP, Plus! Regardless of what we think about SP's win or, in my opinion, how much they are acting like sore winners, what are the rest of us going to do about it?!

[Kijutsu]

lol

First!

Plus does not think that.

Oh, really? Concord seems to say otherwise on playfortress.

[apparition]

lol

First!

Plus does not think that.

Oh, really? Concord seems to say otherwise on playfortress.

Actually, I don't think you read carefully. Here's a quote from Playfortress: "Going forward, the team that finds the solution, and a team will find a solution, will be the new king."

[Cosmic Dolphin]

I say this will change fort tactics forever. They were getting old, and how long has it been since fort was shook up? But I say it won't change methods of attack, but it will change our styles of defense.

Now, what I have drawn is very crude and most likely wouldn't work. But it's just an idea. I call it the "Rock On" defense just because it looks similar to the rock on sign. In this way, attackers could only take half of the fort at a time. If both defs stay alive and center helps, you would need 5 attackers to hole and gank. (You lose one in hole, other 4 take over your three guys.) Also, you should only lose half of your defense. when an attacker snakes his way in.

There are some problems with the idea, clearly. It could easily be torpedoed. Also, would there even be enough time to set it up? People could go down the center of it from the front side if your center blocker is not careful. (Way to cover back center is both defs go all the way to the wall.) At maximum, you have 3 attackers yourself and you have a slower grind. It would take a high amount of synchronization from the defs.

As I said before, I doubt this idea would work. It would need to be tested. But you guys get the idea. Our defenses, within the next few ladles, will have changed dramatically. I am sure someone out there has a better plan and it will be debuted soon. In fact, that team with a new defense will be the winners.

[1200]

Appa no need to get worked out....
and don't even pay no mind to comments like "we didn't have the skill to beat them."
At the end of the final match 2 rounds to go....we were up in points.
It was anybody's game, we just happened to screw it up.

They won and they have the bragging rights and i agree some of them haven't been classy about it but thats their choice.

[ItzAcid]

I don't like seeing sore winners, but they did win the ladle so apparently they ARE good. I'm not a fortress pro by any means, but I've watched teams play and progress in the past. It seems that with how good defenses are getting along with how good attackers are getting is bound to change the game. Just like tron has been revolutionized from the day it was released for download, it will continue to change. The change may be for the better or worse, but as players continue to increase in skill new tactics are bound to be created or further used to win. Sp was the first to use it to its full extent. I agree with whoever said that fort will change from this ladle(idr who said it lol) and yes, it was more fun when holing and the newer gay techniques were used. Overall i feel like theres no reason for dragging them down for using this because although it can be cheap, it worked.

[Word]

It was like Capture the Flag fortress style.

that's funny, cause SP sucks at ctf







when we get bored because SP wins every ladle we can just all move to ctf as long as they don't dominate it....and then HR

[FroZen]

...and then HR

And then I'll dominate.

To be honest, I am surprised it has taken this long for "holing" to develop into a major tactic.
It's easy to see it is easy and effective, and I applaud Speeders for moving past the taboos and unrealistic morality involving holes to use it to win. Similar to what epsy has said before: the rules are what the settings define them as. If players feel holes are 'gay', then vote to remove explosions from the official ladle rules?

[þsy]

I think I can speak here without being too biased or guilty of the sins you've accussed SP (because I didn't play in either of the last two winning SP sides).

My first feeling is, why does it matter if a player is particularly (or extremely) proud? It is a very ugly characteristic on any level, but surely you must be aware that there are many very proud/arrogant teams and individuals in the armagetron community. SP may fall into this category, maybe not.. But they certainly are not the most or least proud team to have ever been around (or perhaps even be around at the moment?).

Secondly, why exactly have you posted this? It's only going to inspire an argument, or bring some sort of negativity. I'm sincerely hoping none of the SP members take the bait, because it really is a sad affair on your behalf apparition, even if what you say is true!

And lastly, please remember that when you try and shame a team, your including everyone within that team. If Jack, Jill, Mary and Joseph from SP are all showing off their ladle trophies publicly, it doesn't mean that SP as a collective are 'proud', and only shows the opinion's of those four people - not the other ten members. This last part has a pretty nasty sting, as what you've accussed SP of affects me, and as far as I know, I thought we were pretty tight! My music taste at the very least has valued some of our discussions haha, and though I don't place a great deal on tron-friends, it really isn't a great post to make and does offend me personally.

One last and obvious point I should make is this: I haven't seen this 'pride', and definitely not on a level as heavy as you've suggested. Personally I would definitely avoid showing off this way, especially as the victories aren't really mine to claim.. But as far as I'm aware (which may be very little), I think you're pretty wrong.

But if this is the case, then I'd like to apologise on behalf of any guilty SP members. We will sort it out!

EDIT: What does this have to do with discussing tactics? Other than the first line, which describes some of our 'tactics' (which in reality is your opinion of our attitudes), nothing tactics-wise is mentioned. Lets make this clear - this is a discussion on yours (and allegedly others) thoughts of SP, nothing more or less.

I mean, take this: "Using a completely closed and hidden defensive tactic" - how many open and inviting defensive tactics are there around and actually work? It's a truly ridiculous thing to say haha! I really don't wanna go into this, if you want to discuss tactics as the topic title suggests, then go for it. But lets not continue down this 'I-don't-like-SP' route.. If that's the case, keep your thoughts to yourself

[Flex]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread, because it's so full of flame-bait, but I just feel I want to address some issues here.

Recently there's a few people going around talking crap about us to anybody that's willing to listen. It's also increased after this Ladle, because they don't like it that we've won again. Some of them use the excuse of Ladle discussions to brew hatred towards us, to other people. It's not surprising that those that have done it in the past regarding a different subject about us are at it again.

But, you should obviously know, if you're going to trash talk us, don't expect us to just sit there and smile at you or be ok with you the next time you try to talk to us. Also don't come here whining about SP having shameless pride, just because they stand up to your remarks and insults, be it in front of them or behind their backs.

Also you're an annoying, hypocrite and hater for miss-quoting someone, because you call someone a pussy and insult and harass them for the way they defend and they have enough and decide to say something back to you, don't call them shameless, because in fact, you're the the hypocrite and shameless one for saying things and not being able to get it back.

Our image is important to us and we care for how people perceive us and how we treat others. When you come here and decide to trash talk us and lie about us. You think we're going to just be ok with that? We always respect our opponents and we always say Good match and good game, and we always come here and say it again and anything else that is required of us to do.

We don't go around publicly insulting people or other clans, and so we don't deserve it, either. We are not ashamed of winning the Ladle and why the **** would we be.

[Cosmic Dolphin]

If anybody here would have been smart enough to read, you would see it isn't truly flame bait.

Yes, he does note that some SP members have been too proud. But it's also noted that many have just been stupid whiners and won't get over it and have wrongly accused SP of being stupid. So, he bashes both sides.

If you want to keep posting here, let's talk about what this thread was intended for: how Sp has changed the playing field and we need new tactics to remain competitive and keep Armagetron fun. This forum is about the evolution of fortress tactics, not how annoying Sp members are, nor is it about how we should quit insulting Sp.

[apparition]

These reactions are defensive and I'm not going to take any offense to them - not even from you Flex however ridiculous you're responding. They're defensive for a reason and I think it's because these issues need to be talked about and you're responding how you feel is necessary. That's fine. Some people read what I wrote carefully and put a little thought into what I'm asking. You, on the other hand, are volatile and reactionary. There are things we cannot change in the world and I can't change your reaction or your personal issues. I'm not responsible for how you respond to me or whether you like me or not for saying this stuff.

I am responsible for what I say though, and let me be clear that I fully back what I wrote. The fact of the matter is that I think this needed to be said. People should be allowed to talk about this stuff. I'm not going to stop talking about it because I'm afraid of how SP will respond.

I could probably explain myself better, but I don't really think I should have to because I put some thought into that post and it's there for you to read if you want to understand better. If you take a little time you'll realize that Cosmic Dolphin is right. I'm out in the open here. It's not FLAME BAIT. Do you think I want you to react this way? No. Read what I wrote again. I'm on a whole different level than you guys, dude. I think you wanted a medium to defend and express yourself and I respect that. You have your opportunity to do so if you want. I don't really care. I'm trying to make some progress, evolve, contemplate.

I clearly stated that I think it's good when people get angry and talk shit and stuff because it makes the game more interesting, competitive and aggressive. I've always played this way on the grid. So, I'm an asshole and so are you Flex. Guess what!? Everyone knows! The only difference is, I smile about this stuff and can play on with people and be happy. That's my image. React how you need to but remember that "image is important" and people will perceive the way you treat others and make their judgments accordingly. When people are in the moment, we react instinctively. I don't blame you for reacting instinctively, but I do think you should have the balls to read what I wrote and amend your attitude.


So, here's to explaining myself a little better...

There are three issues here: the tactics Speeders used, the climate of the community after the 30th Ladle and what we're going to do in the future.

Important points I pointed out that got too pointed for some people who pointed back at me:

• The way some Speeders are acting after the 30th Ladle sucks. I pointed that out, you're pissed. Let's all deal with it.
  Are closed, hidden, step defense and incessant holing the future of Ladles?
  What preparation is everyone doing to counter these tactics so that future Ladles don't suck balls?

[DDMJ]

Holing only works if you have a player advantage and/or you're good at sumo. I didn't watch any of it, but it sounded like SP always had both pluses (no pun intended) going for them, therefore they deserved to win. No offense, but Insa doesn't do the "durkadef" correctly. He plays too far behind his tail meaning that it is a guaranteed loss if there are no sweepers (albeit it takes about 2-3 minutes for him to shrink enough).

[PsYkO]

I'm sure Plus can attest to this. We experimented with the new strategy of speed holing which left us with 5v6.

iNs is clutch, and it is never a guaranteed win vs. him. 'Nuff said.

[DDMJ]

iNs is clutch, and it is never a guaranteed win vs. him. 'Nuff said.

With smart/good players attacking, it is a win at least 9 out of 10 times. The only way he could win is if one of the attackers dies on a corner.