Armagetron Ad; progression.

[MrsKsr]

This post is going to be quite long in length, so I apologise now.

My reason for writing it is simple; I wonder about how much people think about the "marketing" of AA, and I use that word lightly. People such as 2020 have spoken often about this and, in the case of him in particular, they have been shot down with insults and unrelated comments, leaving little or no constructive criticism.

I have no interest in getting Armagetron into the "pro gaming" industry.. It's quite a large one and one that, quite simply, AA is not ready for (imho). However, I would like to see the player base increase. Not all games that you enjoy need to be supported by EAGames and other such companies. Which is why I would like to see us, the community, doing more to "advertise" this game.

For those who are not aware, some of us are in the middle of promoting AA through social networking sites such as twitter and facebook. Believe it or not, on facebook, an AA related group had over 300 members; It may sound like nothing but who would think that 300 people play on a regular basis? It was decided to make an official page which is in unison with the twitter page; a more colloquial form of communication between devs and players, but also a way to give information.

I understand that some people do not like social networking websites, but they can be a good medium for attracting new players; Providing they are dealt with in a professional manner. With that in mind I want to bring attention to the main Armagetron Ad page. It comes across as dated (nobody take offence). The page doesn't really appeal to newer players who may stumble across it. I propose a "rethink" of that page, both design and layout. Don't get me wrong, I don't want everything to be shiny and garish, it should be simple yet modern..

"Theme-ing" aside, there is the issue of keeping the information updated. Afaik, it isn't visable that 0.2.8.3 has been released <-- Important right? It needs to be advertised in News on the front page of the site.

Where the forums are concerned, the theme is fine, yes it matches the site, but need everything match exactly? So in the case of changing theme, I think there is no real need to do so. The only problem I feel with this forum is that there is far too much trolling/flaming. The large majority, if not all, forums have such problems, but these forums really have no way of moderating it. Guru3 is the only admin, meaning most threads that do get out of hand are allowed to do so for staggering periods of time (granted I have been a part of this in the past). I propose that devs have mod ability; That is those who are active developers of Armagetron and who can and should be trusted with the authority to keep better tabs on what goes on here.

Devs work hard on making this game what it is, and we love them for it, but we can't expect them to do it all. We as the community have some kind of responsibility to the game, to ensure that it grows and doesn't settle into a stalemate situation. We can start by evaluating what this community looks like to those who try to enter it. Having a forum dotted with irrelevancy and hostility doesn't bode well for our "appearance". I don't expect everyone to be saints, I am not one myself, but in a community so small, I'd like to see us all pull together a little more.

If you have facebook/twitter then support the pages, promote them. If you have ideas about the less "codey" side of development, post them. But please, please, keep this on topic.

[XzL.Smart]

I believe those other threads about promoting the game was because the developers were afraid of Disney doing some sort of lawsuit against them... I'm not sure though..

[Luke-Jr]

http://handseverywhere.net/random/frontpage.html <-- current draft of new website (why isn't it on beta.armagetronad.net??)

I'd like to see more non-developers participate. Things like maintaining the resource repository (approving new users/accounts, adding non-automatable resources, etc) and forum moderation don't require C++ skills. There's no reason it should be left for developers to do-- we could be improving the game instead!

I'm not bothered by Disney-- so long as we continue on the path of distancing the game from their trademarks. Armagetron has progressed beyond a mere TRON clone, and continues to deviate further. We are an original game by now, not related to Disney's movie.

[XzL.Smart]

Heh, I guess all you would need to do is drop support for hr and df, and it'd be fine.

[kyle]

Heh, I guess all you would need to do is drop support for hr and df, and it'd be fine.

HR and df actually distance arma from the movie.

[Phytotron]

Hmm, to what demographic do you want to "market" it? More SNERTs (snot-nosed, egotistical, rude teens)? It might be worth noting that, at least as I saw it, the increase in popularity of this game—especially since 0.2.8.x and all the special game modes (coincidence or not needn't be explored now; I'm just marking a time)—has brought with it a degeneration of the "community." (Some might actually say it really began with 0.2.7.1.) The proportion of the aforementioned snerts and other assholes really increased. I recall that the community used to be more mature (both in terms of average age and behavior), and a more mixed crowd (in terms of age, personalities, backgrounds, etc.) than it is now. Sure, there were the miscreants, but they were a minority and generally put in their place or ostracised.

This mirrors the forum's degeneration as well. Yes, we used to get into little dustups now and then, but nothing too severe or malicious. It certainly hasn't always been nearly as bad as it is now. It began, I think, with the SP/XzL, et al kids (and a couple degenerate religious proselytizers among their ranks, with whom, yes, I got into it), and then more recently, well, we know who they are as they're still active. Here I might also point out that you have at one point or another aligned yourself with a lot of said antagonists who've bespoiled this forum in the last year to the present.

So, who are your target demographic in this "marketing" campaign you want to set in motion? And what do you intend to do about the present state of things?


I like your avatar, by the way. One I used a long time ago:

[Concord]

theres another facebook armagetron group with ~1500 members, too. I can't write as much as I'd like right now, but it's coming.

[MrsKsr]

Phytotron, there are two things that I would like to say to you. The first is that I may be a total nobody in this game, but that does not change the way I feel about it. Yes, I have partaken in such flame fest threads that I mentioned (I'm pretty sure I already said that so thanks for repeating what I just said..) but I'm sick of doing that, so I don't. I also don't want any more +10 page threads about bullshit. So I am here talking about it and trying to find a solution for it that doesn't involve mass virtual genocide.

Anybody who is a member of this community has a right to speak about things which concern it, including myself. I'm pretty sure that for the longest time people have "put up" with you trying to educate them on what you believe is right and supreme, but don't expect to turn this into another "Phytotron knows best" thread.

Regardless of my age, background, maturity or previous actions here on this forum, I am setting this thread aside to really take a further look at what we as a community want out of the game from a different aspect. Just as you question who I am to "market" AA, who are you to tell me I can't do so? Aside from the fact that I am not the "leader" of this, whatever you want to call it, be it marketing or otherwise, I brought the topic here because a/ I was asked to do so and b/ to enable the rest of the community to have their say.

The second is this; Splitting people up into such categories as "SNERTs" is condescending. This kind of post is exactly what people do not need. Fair enough if you have qualms with what is going on here, air them by all means, but to "whine" about things which are off topic is stupid. The common interest in your posts seems to be change. It appears to me that you are either terrified of it or too ignorant to accept it. You cannot expect something to stay the same forever, complaining over and over on these forums and shooting down people who you don't agree with is not productive, to yourself, the other person or the community.

Just because a new generation of players arrives in this game, does not mean all or even most of them are degenerates. With the growth of any community there is bound to be an influx of people who disagree, those who people dislike, people with big mouths etc. Again, doesn't mean they are not worth bothering with.

Either way, you are wrong in your assumption that this is some kind of marketing campaign. I never set out to target a demographic nor will I do so. The topic of conversation is how we can make what we have more efficient; changing the main page to make it more user friendly, for example. Also, using popular mediums to broaden the player base.

If you only want the people who were here at the start or people of your own intellectual level/age to play, then tough. Get over it, the fact is there are people from all walks of life here. Your statement about there being more in the past doesn't make any sense..

Anyway I am getting off topic myself.. I was told that people wanted more interaction between developers and players. So here I am, here is my voice. The others will speak too. I am asking you, Phytotron, to either say something which is going to benefit this conversation, or say nothing at all. Please don't take this as me "flaming" you either.. I just don't want this topic to go to shit like all the others.

EDIT: By the way, thanks Luke for posting about the new site. I wasn't aware that it was in the works. Prime example of a lack of communication between players & devs. Hopefully this will change soon.

[Kijutsu]

I don't really care about more players, the website design, the forum design...

One thing I'd like is improvement within the game, but there's a different place for that.

So what I'm trying to say: I don't care.

[Lackadaisical]

Heh, there has been quite some topics about this but yeah one more can't hurt

main topic about improving on the design:
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... =5&t=19145

another topic which deals with improvents on the skin that's already online but non default yet (mostly in the last couple of pages)
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... =5&t=19173

kamps and appas posts that started the new design but also voiced concerns about the community/dev relation and 'marketing':
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 0&p=204311

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... =2&t=19054

There is also this topic from destiny where she promised to do something about it but backed out after we wanted her to show us something. I suppose this also kinda led to emergence of tr2n
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 58&t=19375


I'll reply later with the plans which are in the work (which involves distilling all the stuff said in those topics..), just wanted to show there has been quite some topics about it already, and most of the discussion going on about it has been open to everyone. Personally I like it that way as well to get input from as many people possible. I'm not really sure how to involve more people than that. Also it's definitely time to start doing something about it.

[Z-Man]

EDIT: By the way, thanks Luke for posting about the new site. I wasn't aware that it was in the works. Prime example of a lack of communication between players & devs. Hopefully this will change soon.

We have a whole thread dedicated to the topic of the new website design. We do talk about the stuff we're doing.

The thing with everything website update, right now, is that Tank is busy with exams. He'll give me access as son as he can find a spare moment.

Regarding marketing, you guys do that. No objections. I always relied on player to player mouth to mouth advertising, seems to be the right way to do it. Just don't expect me to register on Facebook or write tweets. I consider that a waste of my and everybody else's time. What you guys don't realize is that most of the stuff we devs do is deadly boring to hear about. Those things that are not, we usually post about here, and quite frankly, the good stuff doesn't fit into tweets. If you want to hear the occasional scream of "OMG WHO IS LEAKING 15 kb of memory per second?", go to the IRC channel. I'm usually working on my laptop which is suffering from memory constraints; a regular compilation flushes the disk cache completely and swaps out pretty much every other application. Even having Firefox open is something I'd rather avoid, but I have to, because Launchpad is broken on the old version of Konqueror I have and I can't post comments on bug reports, the button is just not there.

In short: if you want updates from this particular developer, go to where he already is, don't expect him to visit you on the social platform du jour. What's next, a Second Life presence?

Well, OK, maybe twittering is negotiable, especially considering it interfaces with IRC rather well. But Facebook is just too creepy.

[MrsKsr]

lol, I do see that kind of thing from you Zed-Man (as I idle IRC) ^_^ Actually sitting in there reading what you guys say actually prompts a lot of questions (though usually I air them privately), so yea IRC is a cool place to find stuff out too. But lately I heard people have said that there just wasn't enough conversation between us (devs/players)..

Anyway the facebook page was more about pulling all those pocket groups/pages into one which, if people felt like it, would actually be read by the devs that joined it (Luke-Jr, Lucifer & epsy). Twitter is cool too, was never going to push you into it because I know you don't like it :P but if in the future you feel like you want to use it, then by all means do so :]

[Z-Man]

The way to get me to use twitter is to make me not use it at all Set up an IRC bot doing the twittering for me. The bot is essentially this one, with some modifications. Of course, I still think this is a waste of everybody else's time

[Phytotron]

I think you misread me, Dubs. I wasn't arguing or shooting you down; I was responding. Blah, I don't like parsing out posts, but here goes:

I didn't call you a total nobody, or imply it, nor do I think it. I agree that anybody (providing they're not malicious) who is a member of this community has a right to speak about things which concern it, including you. I've made a similar point concerning players' input on development, I'm sure you've noticed.

I'm glad you're saying you're sick of the flame threads, etc., but that stuff is still going on—it doesn't have to be 10+ pages to qualify. It also happens in-game. Since you had participated in that stuff, and do have relationships with many of the antagonists, I wondered what you intended to do about it yourself, personally, now. Not in some theoretical future, but now. Simply passively "not participating" isn't doing much, in my estimation.

I may support these endeavors as, obviously, I've been fed up with it from the time it started. But the point is, it takes active action, not passive sitting by, covering eyes, ears, and mouth, and hoping it gets better. I don't believe the "don't feed the trolls" mantra actually works when the trolls' purpose is not only to get attention, but be a bully and take over. They have to be put down.

I also didn't question "who are you to do this?" as though you have no right or place to do so. My view on it is something along the same lines as Z-Man's.

You did use the term "marketing," and although done "lightly," you did also say you wanted the player base to increase. You want to use all these social networking sites. Whether you intend it or not, demographics come into play, and I'm wondering to whom you plan to make your outreach.

Yes, I condescend to "SNERTs." That sort of behaviour deserves it. I think we as a civilisation should have expectations and standards, rather than some silly postmodernistic relativism.

But I'm not an ageist, either. I've had good relationships with teens, and bad relationships with supposed adults. Despite the "teen" in the acronym, a 40-year-old can be a "snert" or act in a juvenile, adolescent, or childish manner, too. My criticism is of mentality and attitude, and the behaviour that results from it.

But, I'm telling you, there is a much greater proportion of teenagers now than there used to be, perhaps a majority at this point, and while teen doesn't necessarily equal shithead (anymore than adult necessarily equals non-shithead, by any means), and I don't want to exclude the kids, it just so happens that, in my view, the proportion of shitheads has also greatly increased at the same time. Just as it has with the introduction of all the goofy game modes and crap like open/DF/whatever.

So, again, how you market will determine a certain demographic—not an age demographic, but a type of person. I'm asking what sort of demographic you want to draw. How and who go hand in hand.

Finally, I don't get this accusation that I'm "afraid of change." Like I've said before, I want change. I would like a lot of changes. The disagreements are in the kind of changes.


So, I think you got a bit more in a huff than necessary.

[Concord]

"Progress" means different things for different people, and Phytotron's opinions on progress are no more or less valid than dubstep's or mine or z-man's.

Well I agree with mine. So mine are the most valid, right?