How can non-double binders beat double binders?

[green_lizard]

Does anyone have suggestions on how a non double-binding player can beat a double binder?

[Jonathan]

• Get good at hitting the same key several times in a row. I can do it with 1/15 s intervals for limited time.
• Find alternative ways to get the advantage.
• Some settings encourage double-binding more than others, e.g. low CYCLE_DELAY and some combination that makes it an effective 'strategy'. Try to avoid servers using such settings.

[ed]

I had that very same dilema a while back.
I tried everything...
walking to work backwards
doing the washing up blindfolded
parting my hair on the left

Nothing worked, those damn double grinders beat me every time.

Then I had dinner at my mother in laws. Thought nothing of it at the time. When I got home had a game of tron I was winning left right and center, those double grinders didn't stand a chance.
Then it twigged, lumpy gravy. She'd served me lumpy gravy.

In answer, the way to beat doublegrinders is eat lumpy gravy.

[green_lizard]

jonathan, what do you mean alternate ways to get advantage?

[Jonathan]

I suppose double-binding lets you get good grinds more easily when turning in certain ways, which is advantageous. To beat them you need some advantage to counter it.

[kyle]

i think ed is trying to say he was playing later in the evining when there were only us players and him. therefore it was his lower ping vs the rest of the high pings. Turning partially relates to ping

[Tank Program]

Double binding's main advantage is that it lets you react faster. So, if you put yourself in a positision where you can see what's coming, it isn't as necessary... If that makes any sense...

[Jonathan]

We should separate timing and reaction time. Albeit related, they're not the same thing. Double-binding only affects reaction time if the time spent in the reaction itself is counted (which is in fact the resulting action in progress; the player has already responded), and possibly in more subtle ways. Timing of multiple rapid turns in the same direction (excluding the first) is all it really changes. FYI, typical 'lag' influences mostly reaction time, especially in a game like Armagetron with some tolerance for network jitter and loss.

[green_lizard]

So we are talking about staying out in the open, wide camera zoom, having some kind of trap prepared, and keeping zones controlled?

[Tank Program]

Wide camera zoom is a good idea.

[DDMJ]

Watch madmax, MaZuffeR, or Lackadaisical play .

[Lucifer]

First, don't let them scare you. I don't agree at all that double-binding increases reaction time, the time it takes you to react to something is independent of your response when your response is only going to constitute one or more turns. However, even now that I've been double-binding for years, I find that it still confuses my response. I will frequently respond with a single turn when hitting my two turn keys was the appropriate response. Less often, I respond with a double-bind when a single turn was better.

When you see me drawing really complex patterns on the grid, I'm single-binding all of them. I don't double-bind in mazes anymore, pretty much I only use it these days to simplify turning back and grinding my own wall, and on a server whose only changes are cycle_delay 0.04 and cycle_rubber 10, that hurts you more than it helps. You get a tighter grind going out farther in default settings, which you only notice when cycle_delay is lower than the default 0.1.

Just remember that many players (I think more than there used to be) are good at moving and doing stuff, but have very little, if any, tactical sophistication. What works now is what has always worked: thinking smarter and faster than the other guy. Luckily, since there are so many players out there whose only claim to skill is the wild moves they can make, it doesn't take much effort to think smarter, but thinking faster can be tough sometimes. Some of the cleverest traps I've set failed to spring because the other guy's moves worked more or less by chance, but he didn't see the trap.

[2020]

@ ed: hehehehahahah
@kyle:

@green_lizard:
wrt fortress with its low rubber
a lot of good advice from players like watching good players
though i think luci hits it on the head:
pre-empt opponents' moves

my contribution:
play as a team
work well with team-mates

[green_lizard]

thanks for all the info. one more question: anyone else to watch, learn from?

thx

[2020]

too many to mention
imho

just get into a 8v8 and watch who survive...

join a team
or form your own
and play in the next ladle...
best way to learn heheheh