win the 7th tronic ladle!

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Maybe what you're after is a collection of ladle winners squaring off. :)

Yeah, your criticisms are common for knockout tournaments. Using a round-robin to seed the knockout rounds is supposed to eliminate that to some extent, but obviously it can't completely eliminate it. What happens when you lose in the semifinals to the only team to who you lost in the seed round? Then they go on to get defeated by a team you can handily defeat...

Anyway, I think the fundamental problem is that you can't determine a single best team by boiling it down to a few exciting rounds of play. The single best team, imo, is the team that consistently performs at the highest level, and one game or even a few games doesn't give a metric on consistency. I think maybe an ongoing league would be better for this purpose, with good and accurate reporting, the kind of which the game doesn't even have right now and arguably can't have without human observers taking the measurements.
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Ricochet
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Post by Ricochet »

sounds like a plan, agree completely with max and luci :)

I'd say a good idea for a scoring thing would be:

3 points for a whitewash win (i.e. you win all the matches and the opponents dont win one, e.g. 3-0)
2 points for a normal win but you dont win all the games (say 3-1)
1 point to the losing team if they win at least one match (say 3-1)
0 points to the losing team if they are whitewashed (say 3-0).
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Post by MaZuffeR »

Congrats to SP!

2020, if you're gonna make a movie: whatup did a great move in the 4th round of the 3rd final match.

Durka, have you forgotten that you yourself took the winzone in the 6th ladle? I don't think you should be pissed off because SP did the same to you.
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Z-Man
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Post by Z-Man »

Hmm, how about this continuous tournament style: You have
- a number q between .5 and 1
- N teams.
Every team has a history of match wins and losses. The history is recorded in a sequence w_i of numbers. w_i is 0 if the game i rounds ago was lost by the team, it is 2 if the game was won, and 1 if it was a draw (although currently, no game mode allows that result for a game). w_0 always is the result of the very last round, w_1 is the result of the round before that, and so on.
From that, the Win Metric is calculated. It is given by

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W := sum( i from 0 to infinity ) of w_i * q^i
Edit: Rico's plan is also fine. Make w_i the number of won rounds in the corresponding engagement. This would make games get played properly to the end.

Initially, everyone's win history is all zeroes. The initial team list is randomized. A round of the tournament works as this:
1. The two topmost teams on the team list battle each other, the third and fourth topmost teams battle each other, and so on. Results are stored in both teams' win history.
2. The Win Metrics are updated from the changed history. The team list is sorted according to the Win Metric, higher metrics go to the top. The team on top is declared this round's champion if it has a different Win Metric than the second team. This is bound to happen sometime. Even if draws are a legal result, sooner or later, the two Win Metrics will differ.

Performance optimization: you don't have to calculate the whole Win Metric anew every round or store the whole win history. It is perfectly sufficient to record the result w of the last game (0 for loss, 2 for win, 1 for draw) and update the Win Metric according to

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W_new = q * W_old + w
The result is the same.

Example with q=3/4 and four teams labeled A,B,C and D:
In round 1, everyone starts off with Win Metric 0. The list is sorted arbitrarily (that is only required in the first N rounds), let's assume it is A 0, B 0, C 0, D 0. Now A and B compete, as well as C and D. Assume A and D win. The Win Metrics are now 2 for A and D, and still 0 for B and D. The list is sorted, yielding A 2, D 2, B 0, C 0. A and D have the same Metric, so no champion is declared yet.
Round 2: A and D have to battle it out, B and C too. Assume D and C win. Now the Metrics are A 1.5, B 0, C 2, D 3.5 or sorted: D 3.5, C 2, A 1.5, B 0. D is declared champion of the second round. That's the same result as a knockout tournament would have given.
Round 3: It's D vs C and A vs B. Let's say B manages to improve drastically: B and D win. The sorted list is D 7.625, B 2, C 1.5, A 1.125. D stays champion. Still, the same result as a knockout tournament staring with the setup of round 2.
Round 4: D vs B and C vs A again, B and A win. Sorted list: D 5.71875, B 3.5, A 2.84375, C 1.125. D stays champion. This time, a knockout tournament starting from round 3's setup would have declared B the champion, but D's persistent history of won games saved it it's title for now. Only if B beats D again in the next round, B will become champion. By tuning q, you can determine the number of rounds a team can stay champion even though it gets beaten consistently.

Analysis: With a number q between .5 and 1. q = .5 gives the same result as knockout tournaments and quickly changing champions, q=1 gives the other end: the old champion with a long history of won games will take very long to replace. The number of rounds required to replace a previously undefeated, but now completely harmless champion is -1/log_2(q), rounded down. In the example above, that's 2. Err. Sorry for the math, I can't help it :)

I'd probably organize this with one game played per week, so each round is spread over 2^N weeks. Or maybe, for starters, roughly every two weeks to avoid collisions with the ladle. Each game would look like a ladle final, essentially. I'd be willing to give it a try, taking a bit of care over the ladle matches was sort of fun so far. I'd make the minor modification that the default player count per team is 5, no 8, and that it can be increased only on request from both teams. I'd pick the second rating model with q=3/4 and maybe seed the win history from past ladles. The seed gets irrelevant after some rounds. What do you think?
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Post by Sasha »

MaZuffeR wrote:Congrats to SP!

2020, if you're gonna make a movie: whatup did a great move in the 4th round of the 3rd final match.
Where can I watch it?
MaZuffeR wrote:Durka, have you forgotten that you yourself took the winzone in the 6th ladle? I don't think you should be pissed off because SP did the same to you.
Really? LOL. Durka, I want to say big fat LOL :)
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Post by Ricochet »

z-man, personally I'd choose to have the max player count at about 6, to avoid some severe fps problems with some people (like me :/)

And I had thought this was going to be the revamped idea of the ladle, and you mentioned it clashing with the ladle, but anyway.
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Post by MaZuffeR »

Sasha wrote:
MaZuffeR wrote:Congrats to SP!

2020, if you're gonna make a movie: whatup did a great move in the 4th round of the 3rd final match.
Where can I watch it?
z-mans recordings: http://www.thp.uni-koeln.de/~moos/tronstats/ladle7/
The round starts at about 350s.
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Post by Sasha »

MaZuffeR wrote:
Sasha wrote:
MaZuffeR wrote:Congrats to SP!

2020, if you're gonna make a movie: whatup did a great move in the 4th round of the 3rd final match.
Where can I watch it?
z-mans recordings: http://www.thp.uni-koeln.de/~moos/tronstats/ladle7/
The round starts at about 350s.
Oh, I saw it, I thought whatup created .avi (.mpeg) movie :)))
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Post by Sasha »

oops, you sad "move", but I read "movie" :) LOL
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Post by madmax »

Ricochet wrote:And I had thought this was going to be the revamped idea of the ladle, and you mentioned it clashing with the ladle, but anyway.
I agree with the "clashing". Its good to have a knockout once in a while.
But there's also another option. First point based groups, then a knockout competition.
Think about the UEFA Champions League! 8)

z-man that sounds good. Although maybe you could have put less math on it :)
Teams of 5 also seems a good idea. I think we even discussed that (on the wiki maybe). Smaller teams means: better organization amonst the members, perhaps longer rounds (people get more space to move, clean starts, well defined tasks), more teams, which I think is also a good thing, diversity is nice :wink:

By the way, is there a way to collect data from individual points of each player? Perhaps benefit teams with the best player point average, perhaps keep a list of top scorers... Well, we could always do that by hand.
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Post by Sasha »

madmax wrote:By the way, is there a way to collect data from individual points of each player? Perhaps benefit teams with the best player point average, perhaps keep a list of top scorers... Well, we could always do that by hand.
No! Look at this: http://forums.armagetronad.net/download.php?id=5881
This is Ladle-5 Final.
TM won it, BUT look at overall score:
TM: 402 - this team won (!)
WS: 470 (!!!)
Look at overall score by player!
JJBean was the best! 70 points! = 35 "core dumps", BUT (!!!) hw was owned 25 times. So he won 70 points, but lost 50.
And as you can see in table "delta" Zop and Spidey were the best!
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Post by 2020 »

i was tempted in this last ladle to suggest we play a round robin
since it would have been feasible
but last-minute changes don't go down too well...

i agree that a league of some kind be established
i would love to play in that :)

don't discount the kings of the grid
it is a good idea
and might be easier to establish regular play

may i suggest we keep the ladle
since it might be able to cope with numbers if the game explodes in 2007

i don't see a problem with several competitions running simultaneously
as long as there is communication between organisers

ladle once a month
kings of the grid could be weekly
and are people suggesting a league game night or is this left to the teams to organise?

so
i am happy to keep doing ladle
lack was in charge of kings of the grid
who is taking on the league?


and as for winzones
we've been through that before
there are many reasons both for and against
imho i am in favour of keeping them
hold the line
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Post by Ricochet »

the point i was trying to make about the ladle is, with it being monthly - reasonably frequent - not as many people seem to "care" about it any more. They all seem like, oh we wont enter, theres always the next one. Its as if it has become like a chore to some people. Whereas, if the gap was longer, say 3 monthly, people would be more inclined to enter a larger, better tournament and have more fun. We may even have enough good teams to play a round before the quarters.
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Post by Z-Man »

Ricochet wrote:z-man, personally I'd choose to have the max player count at about 6, to avoid some severe fps problems with some people (like me :/)
You'd get that. If the default is 5 and can only be increased if both teams agree, you only have to get your captain not to make in go beyond 6.
Ricochet wrote:And I had thought this was going to be the revamped idea of the ladle, and you mentioned it clashing with the ladle, but anyway.
Either way suits me. I can settle for "one game every sunday where there is no ladle (or that sumo tournament that was planned to come between ladles". If there is no ladle in its current form any more, no problem :)
With a weekly game, the schedule needs to be flexible to adapt the the players' (and admins') RL needs. I'd make a list of dates available well ahead of time (Sundays 8 - 11 pm GMT usually is fine for me). How does this sound: for every game, three time/server slots are made available to the teams to pick from. The higher ranked team gets to eliminate one, the lower ranked team another one, the remaining slot is picked for the match. The lower ranked team has a bit of a selection advantage there.

Would the other server admins support this basic plan? I'd imagine we'd use time sharing for the slots, and make it so that each admin is only busy one one day. For example, the totally available slots could be the second sunday of the month on my server, starting at 8, 9 and 10 pm GMT, the third sunday on Wrtl's server (same times) and the fourth sunday on 2020's server (also, same times). The teams of the first game of a round get to pick between 10 pm GMT, my server, second sunday or 9 pm GMT, Wrtl's server, third sunday or 8 pm GMT, 2020's server, fourth sunday. The second game can be at 10 pm on the third sunday, 9 pm on the fourth sunday or 8 pm on the second sunday of the following month, again on my server. And so on. The order of matches is preserved that way, although in extreme cases, three of them can be on a single day and under a single admin with no games two slots ahead and after that.

The order preservation of games is not really important; but I'd say you want the "final", the match between the two highest ranked teams, to come last in a round. It's the only game where one team can emerge as the champion by its own effort* and therefore the most exciting one. The games should be scheduled completely before the first game of a round starts, I'd suggest having at least a one week break between rounds for that.

*: if the "final" is a draw and scores were similar at the start of the round, lower ranked teams can also become champion; but that required the "cooperation" of the former champion in the form of not winning.
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Post by madmax »

Sasha wrote:No! Look at this: http://forums.armagetronad.net/download.php?id=5881
This is Ladle-5 Final.
TM won it, BUT look at overall score:
TM: 402 - this team won (!)
WS: 470 (!!!)
Look at overall score by player!
JJBean was the best! 70 points! = 35 "core dumps", BUT (!!!) hw was owned 25 times. So he won 70 points, but lost 50.
And as you can see in table "delta" Zop and Spidey were the best!
Thanks for linking that table, only saw it today. EDIT: Forgot to say: Very nice job :D
Well, keeping track of the average scoring of the team's elements seems to point out who was the best scoring -group of players-, as in, team.
About the top scorers, you could have one for best "delta", one for top scorer, one for teamkills, ...

Of course a particular statistic doesnt point out who the best player was, but thats not the point, I think just having some more info would be nice. Specific information about particular aspects of a team/player add more to the game IMHO.
Last edited by madmax on Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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