Ladle 97

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vov
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by vov »

@Krikio: both team leaders agreed to a pause at 90-70 (http://i.imgur.com/gmGdhco.png), but during the downtime, not getting ready, when the match score hit 100 your team claimed to have won the match. Afterwards there was about 10 minutes of useless banter and then we finally got on with it. We wouldn't have been able to if not for Magi since echo.bot, the other present mod, had no clue what was going on and kept distracting and bantering too.
Later in the finals, appleseed also, amongst other actions, silenced Gazelle, captain of Redemption (http://imgur.com/bOji0ge), to disrupt the tournament even more.

Deal with it. You lost. Your team should be ashamed for needlessly delaying the tournament. Don't ever do it again.

I think appleseed as the captain of that rotten team should be banned from the ladle for his actions today.
Not sure if there's a way to punish the others on his team as well.

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Re: Ladle 97

Post by Koala »

It seems as if everything is ok as long as Magi got what he wanted. It's sad that all the people in that server just stood aside when Magi abused his power and banned us all from the server for no reason. We had not done anything offensive to anyone, yet he chose kick us all and proceeded with the ladle as if nothing had happened. It was a very unpleasent experience for all of us and I'm sure no one in our position would be fine with it.

Krikio
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by Krikio »

@Vov clearly at that screenshot you see that one of our Team leaders (mr) disagrees with the decision to pause the game. But okay do with it like you want, best way that suits you.

Sure 90-70 score as you keep saying it should have been but in the end you did not even let us play with that score. You put that score up mid round, won the round as non of us were even aware we started playing and then claimed to have won the match. After that we refused to accept that such injustice was done to us and wanted to atleast sort it out, yet Magi simply kicked us all out and went on with the match.

The screenshot you have of apple silencing gazelle is simply to show that you can't do stuff to people for no reason and not expect to get anything back. Koala was writin in /shout sure, but apple wasn't he kept it in spectator chat only at that time for sure, yet only because he had m&m tags or for some another reason he was silenced...

And I don't know what you have against apple but why should he be banned? Has he done anything wrong? He only stood up for his team and led us eventho we were only 5 players throughout almost whole ladle. K I'm done.

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Re: Ladle 97

Post by Zenith »

Furthermore, even if the match was 'paused', how could you restart the match without m&m's approval? That itself is a violation. And magi kicking us is by no means justified; that is literally saying that your input overrides ours.

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Re: Ladle 97

Post by IndigoChild »

Are we all ignoring the fact that m&m tried to prevent ladle from happening until mister was able to play? This honestly disgust me. Going through my server logs I dug up PM's of an m&m (who shall remain nameless) speaking to another player by the name of "ShungLee45" about sending malicious attacks during ladle in order to buy m&m some more time. It sickens me they have the nerve to complain about admin abuse when they are just as guilty.

P.S: This isn't the first time m&m tried to cheat their way to a ladle win. You guys need to grow up honestly.
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THEred
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by THEred »

this whole thing between m&m and R arose when people who were not team leaders made statements that they were not entitled to make. The purpose of team leaders is partly to resolve issues such as these, quickly. When there are so many people talking at the same time, it becomes laborious to scan through and figure out what is representative of the team and what is trolling. From what I saw, there was way too much useless trolling coming from multiple players on m&m not only during that time, but throughout the match (and I'm sure this can be verified through the server logs). Some of it was funny; a lot of it was annoying us to the point where we just weren't going to roll over like you'd assume we would.

Bottom line - if you aren't supposed to be making the decision to pause the match or not, shut up.
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compguygene
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by compguygene »

What was described above took place in Compguygene's GER, my server. It was asked of me to review the server logs. I cannot attest to everything that happened, as only the discussion of what had happened in Kyle's NYC was recorded in my server.
Rather than spam this forum with 27 minutes of a chatlog, I thought that I would summarize the highlights of what I read, and share them here. It seems that the score in Kyle's NYC was 90-70 with m&m leading had been reset 3 times to that score because of the server being DDOS'd 3 times. At that point, it seems that after 25 minutes of debate there was agreement to continue the match m&m 1 R 1 to have a final match to determine who would go on to play in the final.
Then, Magi was getting pressure to get on with the finals as the other team had been waiting an hour at that point to play and it was nearly 24:00 GMT. At that time, Magi, a member or R, decided to kick m&m and get the next team in to play R in the finals.
The other moderator in the server at the time, echo.bot did complain throughout this decision being made by Magi that this was unfair and not the right decision.
When I entered the server after the fact, echo.bot let me know what had happened and I volunteered to do what I could by reviewing server.
Upon further request I can provide edited logs. There is personal information recorded in the logs, so I would need to edit that out.
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by algid »

IndigoChild wrote:Are we all ignoring the fact that m&m tried to prevent ladle from happening until mister was able to play? This honestly disgust me. Going through my server logs I dug up PM's of an m&m (who shall remain nameless) speaking to another player by the name of "ShungLee45" about sending malicious attacks during ladle in order to buy m&m some more time. It sickens me they have the nerve to complain about admin abuse when they are just as guilty.

P.S: This isn't the first time m&m tried to cheat their way to a ladle win. You guys need to grow up honestly.
Proof or no cookie?

The fact that you made a new account just to post this makes your accusation extremely sketchy. It seems like a safety net in case your allegation backfires and ruins your reputation. Someone who contributes to the tron community as much as you do with your ladle server must already have a forums account, right? Why would you post with a new account if the information you have is "fact" because you have the logs?

If you can prove me wrong, I'd be extremely surprised at the number of flaws that are in your original post.

Anyways, GGs, I personally don't care much about the results. I had to leave in the middle of the last server switch anyways.

algid
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by algid »

IndigoChild wrote:Are we all ignoring the fact that m&m tried to prevent ladle from happening until mister was able to play? This honestly disgust me. Going through my server logs I dug up PM's of an m&m (who shall remain nameless) speaking to another player by the name of "ShungLee45" about sending malicious attacks during ladle in order to buy m&m some more time. It sickens me they have the nerve to complain about admin abuse when they are just as guilty.

P.S: This isn't the first time m&m tried to cheat their way to a ladle win. You guys need to grow up honestly.
Proof or no cookie?

The fact that this is your 1st post makes your accusation extremely sketchy. It seems like a safety net in case your allegation backfires and ruins your reputation. Someone who contributes to the tron community as much as you do with your ladle server must already have a forums account, right? Why would you post with a new account if the information you have is "fact" because you have the logs?

If you can prove me wrong, I'd be extremely surprised at the number of flaws that are in your original post.

Anyways, GGs, I personally don't care much about the results. I had to leave in the middle of the last server switch anyways.

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Magi
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by Magi »

Yes, my actions to kick were probably excessive, but at the point it was already late in the day. We were lucky if we were able to even get 4 rounds in before a DDoS happened and the server crashed and had to start the match over again. I didn't intentionally ban anyone, the server auto-banned for 5 minutes when I kicked so Redemption could get into the server and play so we would finish this dreadful day of DDoSing and arguments. As for me "starting" the match without your team's approval, you can check the logs, I said many times we were starting 1-0 90-70, the way the score was when multiple players said "pause" due to the server entering Turtle Mode and players sliding and dying, which might I mentioned happened at the end of a round you guys won, but I assumed you would win that round anyways due to the player advantage and gave you the 10 points that came with it, making it 90-70 instead of a possible 100-60 round end right then and there. Server owners can also check the logs and see that I said "okay starting"; proceeded to start_new_match and slap scores to both apple and myself, two team leaders. Then, as soon as I did that, Apple did a start_new_match of his own, so I proceeded to slap the scores back to 90-70, like how my team thought was fair and just considering the circumstances. Your team then lost the next round and lost the match. Personally I discredited Mr's opinion to continue the match in this entire conflict as he had JUST shown up and had yet to play a single round or match where DDoS had impacted the results. Our entire match against CT, that we had to switch servers I believe 3 times? Were paused and we agreed to a fair score that represented close values to what both teams had at the crash. I even got personally DDoS'd during those matches and couldn't play until the 3rd match without timing out. Notice though CT and R came to a fair and honest decision, we stopped playing when 75% of the players in the server said "okay let's pause". We moved to a new server, slapped the scores and continued. You guys though made it complete hell and refused to be reasonable, assuming it was 1-1, as if you honestly earned those last 30 points when half the teams died in the first 3 seconds and the rest slid 5 meters per turn. Though I must say, when something "unfortunate" happens to your team you guys sure are quick to play the "omg help we were abused so badly card" when in reality your players are unsportsmanlike, and are bringing a horrible taste in people's mouths whenever they have to play against you.

Having just read Compguygene's post, R NEVER once agreed to play 1-1. Instead echo.bot CONSISTENTLY edited the scores of the matches through team_name_1/2. As you can clearly see in vov's screenshot it shows apple, one of the team leaders saying "paus" which, typo aside, I can assume everyone would say is a call for a pause since we all assumed a DDoS would crash the server. How can you expect a team to play the next 3 rounds without confusion and call it fair when one team leader says "pause" and the other says "no". The sensible thing would have been to say okay, we'll play from 70-90 but they would not.

Edit: Since this also was a problem last ladle against Crazy Tronners, when CT crashed, unrelated to any sort of DDoS, just a crash, CT was under the assumption that the match would restart 0-0, since they obviously had no fair chance fighting back with half their team missing, and trying to get them back into the server.

There was another similar case in Ladle 95 when R played m&m and our players lagged out and we asked for a pause. Players on m&m said yes, then responded shortly after with "jk" and they tried to take advantage and win the match. We finally came to a conclusion, about 5 minutes later that we would replay the match first to 22. It was resolved after some headbutting, but played out fairly. Then m&m went on to win the 3rd match and win ladle aftewards. Hooray. Nothing close to the sort was going to come from that today. Players were already sick and tired of the DDoS and just wanted to get it over with.

But seeing as so many people find my "abuse" horrific, next ladle when I make the authorities I will remove myself from the Global Moderator position. The reason I initially added myself there was to help restart matches with the correct scores since in the past there never seemed to be anyone around to help.

If you want to hold a trial to ban me for something I did, so be it, you all have that right, but I believe that what I did was the best course of action available at the time to finish ladle today.
Last edited by Magi on Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Overrated
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by Overrated »

This is from the perspective of a player in this situation. Here's my thought process.

In earlier matches against CT, and in an earlier round/match against m&m, there was an attack on the server causing it to lag and eventually crash. The fairest thing to do in those situations was restart the match from the point totals when the issue began to happen. This happened multiple times during both sets of matches, so we did the fairest option, makes sense right? Well, the incident we're bringing this from is another situation where the server was attacked in one way shape or form. Keep in mind, most of the time the server just crashes one round after instead of continuing to be played on for nearly 5-6 more rounds.

So, we, and at least half of m&m's team at the time, said pause. The screenshot further proves this (Eber, Koala, and Appleseed all say this, with mr being the only exception). Please keep in mind that at the time of this happening, R is down at least 3v4 (I think 3v5 at the time this happened) in a close match near the end. I think based on prior circumstances it was fair for us to believe we were going to restart the match from where it was at, given it gives both teams a fair shot when the lag dies down. Again, we need to keep in mind that three times prior a server was attacked, this being the fourth incident. We were at a point where we wanted the match to get over with, as was Redemption (keep in mind they waited nearly two hours for us to finish).

While all of this was going down and even at the beginning, for the most part, m&m appeared to be stalling and spamming the chat in general with the assumption that mr might show up (this comes into play later). We were trying to get things started, but m&m refused and argued a server change for the better part of 10-15 minutes before we reluctantly switched.

Now, this is when all hell broke loose. After the fourth server switch, not only did Redemption believe the fair result would have been a 90-70 restart, but as did our entire team. We moved to an EU server to remedy the possible situation, trying to just get the matches over with. At this point in time it's close to 5-6PM EST, and with the way we felt m&m was treating us, we decided to push for what was in the end, the fairest decision between both teams. The way they had continued to portray themselves didn't help serve the matter. Echo.bot as a moderator, did not help matters. I understand the attempt was to help, but this is for a separate discussion.

Both teams at this point were arguing, while we were getting set up and ready to play for a solid 5-10 minutes we were arguing with m&m over the fairness of the options before us, m&m was still not ready. m&m in total, not including the attacks on the servers, probably delayed the entire ladle a solid 30-45 minutes between their incessant trolling and not getting themselves ready. At this point, we decided to react. It was not fair for us to continue to wait and argue while another team had already been waiting as long as they had. This is when Magi decided to start the match, with a prompt saying we were to begin, and reset it to 90-70. m&m was completely unprepared, and in response appleseed had restarted the match on his own. We decided to void the initial one Magi had reset, and took appleseed's new match start as them being ready. It might not have been the best option and choice, but the amount of delay that was caused by their team was enough to make both the spectators and our team frustrated as we wanted to get things moving again. I think in an instance where m&m had not been acting the way they were, there would have been a discussion on restarting at 1-1 apiece, but again, the delays and their actions caused by them forced our hand. * This is not apparently the first instance that this happened, since it happened last ladle too if what I was told was true. This is repeat offenses on that topic, but again, another discussion. *

When the finals came along, m&m was reluctant to leave, so what does Magi do? He kicks them for refusing to unlock their team and let Redemption come in to play. I think this move is justified and is okay given the circumstances, although the suspend option was probably the better choice. Partially through the match, Eber and someone else (I can't remember who it was), thought it would be cool to continue trolling in the middle of a round as a spectator. They didn't just spam the chat about the issues prior, but apparently also mass-spammed Magi (I can't verify this, only what he had said). In response, Gazelle decided to silence all of the m&m people in the server. This was an issue I had at the time, but was going to ignore it. I realize apple hadn't really said anything not in spec chat, and so for that I think Gazelle may have messed up in terms of silencing apple, but the others who were being trolly were silenced as needed.

So, overall, m&m basically were acting trolly for most of the time they were there, and in response they were silenced. We felt we gave them plenty of opportunity and they did not accept and thus resulted in what happened today. That is all.

I again apologize to Redemption for the long wait, I really wish it would have been done through faster but there's nothing we did everything we could have.

Thanks for the good matches CT, m&m, and Rd. I really wish we could have stuck to one server for most of the matches.\

Edit: Compguy, we never agreed to 1-1. We were insistent on restarting it as 90-70 (R was winning at the time of the DDOS, not m&m, and had 1 match already). Your facts are wrong in this instance and I hope there are recordings that have proof of that. I personally think echo.bot did not help moderating, but this is a different topic, this one already has enough to debate about as it is.
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by Oparachukwu »

Dear Tron,

I support m&m 100%. I think all allegations made by Rogue are completely false. Even though it was getting late, I think m&m should have more time to resolve the issue. Who knows, if m&m got another chance they probably would've won. They were playing 5v6 until mr came. But when he finally made his appearance, Magi used his authoritarian rule in a unorthodox way by banning all m&m members for like 5 minutes. Eber didn't even say anything and he was banned from the server. I think Magi should be guilty for blasphemy (jk!) But seriously I think we should suspend his global moderator status, not revoke. But then again I was considered a dumpster tronner like a few hours ago, so hopefully you guys will hear me out!

Sincerely,
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compguygene
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by compguygene »

Wow. My bad on interperetation of the chatlog. You are correct, Magi. R never agreed to a 1-1. No matter what, my logs just have the debate.
I have to applaud Magi for willingly removing himself as a moderator to avoid any further controversy here.
The real question that m&m is going to posit here is simple. Were they cheated of the opportunity to finish out the match?
I don't know the answer. But the question is the elephant in the room. Obviously, at this point the Ladle is over and you can never re-create the conditions of the day to see what would happen. If that even is appropriate.
And I hope there is no hating on Magi. He is doing the right thing by willingly stepping down as a Moderator. Yet he continues to reset the challenge board and serve a vital role in keeping this event going.
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Re: Ladle 97

Post by Zenith »

Hey guys, thanks Magi and Over for the summary of events from the match today. Y'all have summed up pretty well what happened today, but here is our perspective.

Magi had started a new match with the score of 90-70. And though his claim that he stated "okay starting" may be true, that doesn't validate his actions whatsoever, given that no m&m team member had agreed to this. With this unexpected start, many of our members on ts feared that you guys would win the match and pull the "okay we won, finals now" in the heat of the moment. Therefore, we agreed that I should start a new match to prevent you guys from immediately 'winning', when we hadn't even resolved the earlier conflict. This was by no means an "okay, we're ready"—we would have said so otherwise. Unfortunately there was obviously a misunderstanding and the series of events that followed occurred. But we believe that this could have been prevented had Magi not initially started the match without m&m approval.

Despite the fact that the teams remaining in the contest were tired and frustrated after an arduous day filled with DDoS attacks (especially R), the course of actions taken by you guys was not justified. Yes, m&m may have a history of being unsportsmanlike depending on your perspective; we probably even acted like trolls at certain times today. But what we wanted was clear— to start a new match at 1-1. Over mentions that they "were insistent on restarting it as 90-70", and this is true. But at no point did we agree to this; you guys are guilty of taking our voice away from us, and even kicking our entire team just because it was "already late in the day" and you weren't getting what you wanted quick enough.

Just because R and Rd wanted to get on with the tournament, things should not have gone this way. The culmination of careless mistakes by R to ignore us (when clearly rules were violated by them) makes me feel justified in saying that there should be some form of punishment for Magi, as the team leader and person who carried out the actual decisions.

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Re: Ladle 97

Post by bilbo baggins »

i don't want to get into a flame war here. And i wasn't even witness to what happened, but stalling a ladle is in itself a rule violation, if you do so for more than 15 mins technically you forfeight the match. There were plenty of ddos attacks which should be discussed in another topic. If this happens a match should be started from the score before the attack/lag takes place, reglardless of whether both TL's say "pause" . m&m last month did exactly the same thing to ct but on the other foot and they were not at all forgiving taking the match when it was only 4 rounds in or so. So when it happens to you, don't be so butt hurt. Swings and roundabouts my friends, If you be the most unsportsmanlike and abusive team in the community no one will give you courtesy. gg's see you next month.

I don't really care about what went on between R and m&m. The bigger issue are these constant ddos attacking which will ultimately destroy ladle if not combated and controlled. I personally like the idea of using servers needing custom connects but that requires time and organisation to implement. any idea's...

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