3 month review (forum split)

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ConVicT
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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by ConVicT »

kyle wrote: What we really need are more young programmers ready to step up and program the game.
Just like to add that we do have people like that, but this community likes to get rid of them.
I've read before and I'm happy to repeat.
The devs for this game are happy to keep this game their own l'il project and do NOT want any changes to be made (for some unfathomable reason)... If they did, there would be.
People always coming up with stuff, it's just never added.
There at least eight people that I know of with modified clients, and not in a cheating way, but they won't offer it up because nobody gives a shit.
If someone said "Hey, devs, I've improved your game 100%". Everyone sees it and agrees that it's 100% better.
Where would this version go? I'd expect the main download page, but would it f**k...

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Lucifer
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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by Lucifer »

S0lutai wrote: And yes I agree with someone saying we rely a lot on devs. And there's nothing wrong with that, if we actually HAD DEVELOPERS. There's like 2 of them that are active on the forums. I had a game running I would definitely give a damn about this fine game, that has entertained me for quite some time. I get we all have jobs and family, but seriously has no one ever thought "oh damn this game seems to slowly losing their player base, let's do something about it, yes it's a free game, but that's not an excuse to not give a sh*t.
I'm only addressing this part.

Z-man and I both have kids with disabilities. That takes a SHIT TON OF OUR TIME. I can settle in and think I've got a leisurely few hours to spend with my family, and then I'm DIRECTLY INTERVENING IN A SUICIDE ATTEMPT by my oldest kid.

This shit takes time. We're about to do DBT, which is 5-7:30pm M-Th, and my boss just lectured me today about how I don't have to "choose to take this time off, and [you] can make more money if you don't."

And here you are whining about wanting more developer involvement. I've been crying out for years asking for MORE PEOPLE TO STEP UP AND DEVELOP. Now you say there are people who want to do so. SHOW ME THE CODE.

I don't know what Z-man's specific challenges are, I only know that his kid is also, technically, disabled. The last post he wrote said the kid was doing just fine and acting like a normal kid. But I know from first-hand experience how quickly that shit can go south.

We didn't have these issues in our lives 10 years ago, that's why we had the time to spend 10 years ago. It's not 2005, nor 2007, nor 2010.

If you can step up, please do. We're begging for someone to take over, or fork the project. We are all dedicated to making the 0.4.0 release everything we wanted it to be, so if you have code to contribute to that vision, please do so. If your code doesn't meet the vision, FEEL FREE TO FORK.

As Z-man has previously demonstrated, and it is a lead I will follow should it happen, if someone creates a viable fork, he'll bless it, and I will too.

If you don't like what we're doing because you think your ability to make people crash into your walls somehow trumps our needs to take care of our kids, then fork the damn game.
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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by /dev/null »

I didnt read much past we have waterbabies. However Z-man has abandoned us before, and thats when we got shit done, since hes returned its been fairly stagnant. You guys keep bumping the version number for no real reason at all. 3.0 my ass.

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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by [Anonymous] »

The Devs have done more than enough it's time for the community as a whole to start doing stuff for Tron instead of complaining.
Sigh...
Let's get the best coders available and start some new projects etc.

A month from now I may be starting my own little coding party with the src.

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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by Ratchet »

[Anonymous] wrote:The Devs have done more than enough it's time for the community as a whole to start doing stuff for Tron instead of complaining.
Sigh...
Let's get the best coders available and start some new projects etc.

A month from now I may be starting my own little coding party with the src.

Not to take sides or anything, but:

How often do you see someone who develops something just fall off the face of the Earth and leave it up to other people to further the development? That doesn't exactly happen often. All of you idiots keep preaching this like a broken record when you don't realize that the development being lead by the community is not the norm. Sure, people could help, but quit acting like it's expected of people. Better yet, just stop feeling entitled to shit in general. It makes the world a better place.

That is all.
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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by Z-Man »

Lucifer wrote:Z-man and I both have kids with disabilities. That takes a SHIT TON OF OUR TIME. I can settle in and think I've got a leisurely few hours to spend with my family, and then I'm DIRECTLY INTERVENING IN A SUICIDE ATTEMPT by my oldest kid.
It's not so bad here. Mostly stable. Still: It takes away about two hours of my time in addition to the usual work and parenting. We have 7 different medicines to give her every day, another one once per week. There are three sessions of lung therapy every day. Every meal needs to be prepared with her condition in mind and her medicine needs to be dosed accordingly; pretty much the same effort as diabetes there except that the medicine gets taken during the meal and we constantly have to pay attention to what she is actually eating. Since the medicine she needs to take with her meals would eat away her gums, she needs to get her teeth brushed after every meal, NO EXCEPTIONS. Kids love that. Luckily, she is cooperative with the rest.

I don't think we ever rejected small patches that do useful things and integrated cleanly if they were posted here. Forgotten about... maybe. Overlooked if it was published elsewhere, certainly. If it'd be easier to extract things, we probably would have merged more from the sty based branches.

About forks: Yes! Go right ahead. The master servers support forks. If you make a fork that is network incompatible with the regular versions, just bump the network version up AND include a ForkID into the login and server info packets in a simple, easy to merge patch; that way, different branches can be distinguished in case the main version's network version ID enters your range. (Or let us do that.) Just don't make your fork network incompatible for no good reason, that's the main thing that killed the last fork.

Heck. Might as well say it now. I still want to take care of 0.4 myself, but If anyone feels like replacing me for what comes afterwards, speak up. I've been doing this for 15 years and am a bit tired. This here sometimes feels more like work than my actual job. The transition can be now already, you can take over the Trunk immediately. dlh and epsy would be my favourites, they both have shown over and over that they're willing to just do what needs to be done. I think the only really bad code (apart from my own) I've seen you guys write was the moviepack selection thing in Origins, so from the technical side, everyone who contributed to ct+sty or main probably is qualified. If several of you would rather split responsibilities, if someone really, really wants to be a 'community manager' only, fine by me.

I'll definitely stick around for a bit to do the things I have a setup to do easily, like the builds, bzr-svn syncing and master server running.

Regarding the state of the playerbase, I'd appreciate if ya all could stop pointing out the obvious so smugly, as if it's somehow a win for you. Influx and active player count have fallen below critical levels. New players seeing 100+ empty servers rightfully do not stick around. Our "business model" is a dinosaur; we're under pressure from microtransaction financed, seemingly free high quality games on one side and better and better games that just run in a browser from the other side. Nobody installs a client just to play a no-budget game these days. There really is nothing sensible that can be done in the long term with this project to improve its market position, you'd be better off starting anew with an engine that supports browser based play and mobile. In the sort of short term, the only thing I can do is work on 0.4 (what you can do has been discussed elsewhere). Hopefully, its release will generate a bit of buzz and the new player herding in the server browser (yes, I know that in the current landscape, it only recommends empty servers, that is going to be tweaked or otherwise looked at again) will stabilize the player ecosystem. For maybe another two or three years. Everything must die at one point, it's fine by me if it ends with 0.4. How many other online games have lasted 15 years?

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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by Lucifer »

Z-Man wrote:
Lucifer wrote:Z-man and I both have kids with disabilities. That takes a SHIT TON OF OUR TIME. I can settle in and think I've got a leisurely few hours to spend with my family, and then I'm DIRECTLY INTERVENING IN A SUICIDE ATTEMPT by my oldest kid.
It's not so bad here. Mostly stable. Still: you can read his post
My kid's a bit more needy in some ways. She takes her meds on her own, for the most part (what they call in the mental health field "med compliant"), and she doesn't resist treatment, although she often fails to participate.

What I get, more often than not, is finding her manic and needing to monitor her or actively engage her attention for awhile. That can take anywhere from 5 minutes to 6 hours for a given episode, and there can be more than one in a day (not all time in a manic phase requires intervention, just the ones where she's obsessing about stuff, even good stuff, because that shit can go south quickly). There's a fair amount of time involved in the other three of us that live here keeping each other updated, but the daily load is small. What kills me in terms of free time is the hospital checkins and the time I spend talking to doctors and all sorts of other people. Since her insurance lapsed a month earlier than expected, I was unable to get her some ObamaCare coverage, and we're now depending on a county-level system that's 50% bureaucracy, 40% nobody knows what everybody else does, and 10% convenience. What used to be a trip to Walgreens has turned into running around town after taking the day off, and that's another 4-8 hours of my life.

I don't mind doing it, I love my kid and I want her to get better, and that's just what it takes.

Still, she got a job (flipping hamburgers :) ), and that pushes her to use her DBT skills, which, if she doesn't, she'll lose the independence that the job gives her. When school starts, she'll be so busy, she won't have time to spend obsessing over things, so it'll be the instant triggers we have to watch for (she had a hospital visit recently because of something that came up in Cards Against Humanity that triggered her so hard, she went back and tried to kill herself, going from happy(10) to killmyself(10) in like five minutes).
I don't think we ever rejected small patches that do useful things and integrated cleanly if they were posted here. Forgotten about... maybe. Overlooked if it was published elsewhere, certainly. If it'd be easier to extract things, we probably would have merged more from the sty based branches.
Or didn't know the patches existed in the first place, like when /dev/null was whining about the SDL2 patch.
Regarding the state of the playerbase, I'd appreciate if ya all could stop pointing out the obvious so smugly, as if it's somehow a win for you. Influx and active player count have fallen below critical levels. New players seeing 100+ empty servers rightfully do not stick around. Our "business model" is a dinosaur; we're under pressure from microtransaction financed, seemingly free high quality games on one side and better and better games that just run in a browser from the other side. Nobody installs a client just to play a no-budget game these days. There really is nothing sensible that can be done in the long term with this project to improve its market position, you'd be better off starting anew with an engine that supports browser based play and mobile. In the sort of short term, the only thing I can do is work on 0.4 (what you can do has been discussed elsewhere). Hopefully, its release will generate a bit of buzz and the new player herding in the server browser (yes, I know that in the current landscape, it only recommends empty servers, that is going to be tweaked or otherwise looked at again) will stabilize the player ecosystem. For maybe another two or three years. Everything must die at one point, it's fine by me if it ends with 0.4. How many other online games have lasted 15 years?
[/quote]

I would be willing to be involved, with what little time I have, in a from-scratch rewrite of the game using Panda3d. It has a web browser plugin, and is for Python (you can use C++ if you want). We've often talked about how starting from scratch using lessons learned might be the best thing to do if there's a game engine that gives us a playable release quickly, and I believe Panda 3d can, but I'm still struggling to figure out how to implement a basic pattern in it (main gui, game, game gui, basically switching between them). I just registered for their forums to ask about it, so we'll see. Anyway, we'd be able to reuse all the assets that already exist for arma, and a lot of the code (particularly the simulation) can be copied and pasted and changed to Python syntax, since it's mostly just math anyway. Z-man could probably throw together a Hello, World! light cycle game fairly quickly with it, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he could have a local 2 player game that plays like Armagetron in a few days (assuming he had the time to put into it for a few days).

I second Z-man's opinion that Armagetron is far behind technologically to be able to compete against games right now. I've never really cared about competition, though, and I don't believe he has either. ;) You could say "Armagetron had it's 15 minutes".
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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by Z-Man »

Lucifer wrote: Or didn't know the patches existed in the first place, like when /dev/null was whining about the SDL2 patch.
Speak for yourself. I was aware of it, but it failed the "easy to integrate" part. Still not done with the new build environment, by the way :( Hence still no full merge.
Lucifer wrote:I would be willing to be involved, with what little time I have, in a from-scratch rewrite of the game using Panda3d.
I'd help get it started in the way you describe. I'd advise against taking the full cycle movement code, though. Rubber should be replaced with something else that helps you survive in another way.
Panda3d would not be my first choice. While it works in a browser, it requires an uncommon plugin, that may be an obstacle to people. And as far as I can tell, mobile ports do exist in some form, but they lack Python support. And personally, I like C# and C++ better than Python.
Then again: Panda3d also supports development in C++, so there may be the possibility to directly plug our C++ code into it. The result obviously will no longer work in the browser plugin. Anyway! This would not be my project, so engine choice is none of my business. Maybe being as FOSS as possible is a priority for you, that rules out Unity and Unreal.

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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by /dev/null »

Ratchet wrote:
[Anonymous] wrote:The Devs have done more than enough it's time for the community as a whole to start doing stuff for Tron instead of complaining.
Sigh...
Let's get the best coders available and start some new projects etc.

A month from now I may be starting my own little coding party with the src.

Not to take sides or anything, but:

How often do you see someone who develops something just fall off the face of the Earth and leave it up to other people to further the development? That doesn't exactly happen often. All of you idiots keep preaching this like a broken record when you don't realize that the development being lead by the community is not the norm. Sure, people could help, but quit acting like it's expected of people. Better yet, just stop feeling entitled to shit in general. It makes the world a better place.

That is all.
Its happened to us three times now.

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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by /dev/null »

Your other stuffs sucks, and I cannont pretentend it doesnt, but our stuff didnt suck, and its long forgotten.

I dislike being ignored and forgotten, It makes me punchy.

Also, adding another shitfucktastic layer to tron because you are lazy? Really dude? I will ******* kill you. PANDA
Last edited by /dev/null on Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by Monkey »

Z-Man/Lucifer wrote:Armagetron is far behind technologically to be able to compete against games right now
What it lacks in technology it makes up for in gameplay; this is the best game I've ever played and I've played many, many games in my time.
Z-Man wrote:you'd be better off starting anew with an engine that supports browser based play and mobile.
I disagree strongly. Armagetron isn't so low on players because it can't be played in a browser or on a mobile device.
Z-Man wrote:About forks: Yes! Go right ahead.
I don't believe that we need/want a fork and you guys are mostly doing just fine, even if it's not apparent to everyone at the moment.
Z-Man wrote:Maybe being as FOSS as possible is a priority for you
Which, in my opinion, is as it should be.

@Z-Man and Lucifer
You guys seem to pay too much attention to the crap that some rude and ungrateful people on here write. Armagetron is not dead and it won't die, however, we do need to get 0.4 out of the door. Hopefully it won't be too long before this happens.
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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by /dev/null »

Monkey wrote:
Z-Man/Lucifer wrote:Armagetron is far behind technologically to be able to compete against games right now
What it lacks in technology it makes up for in gameplay; this is the best game I've ever played and I've played many, many games in my time.
Z-Man wrote:you'd be better off starting anew with an engine that supports browser based play and mobile.
I disagree strongly. Armagetron isn't so low on players because it can't be played in a browser or on a mobile device.
Z-Man wrote:About forks: Yes! Go right ahead.
I don't believe that we need/want a fork and you guys are mostly doing just fine, even if it's not apparent to everyone at the moment.
Z-Man wrote:Maybe being as FOSS as possible is a priority for you
Which, in my opinion, is as it should be.

@Z-Man and Lucifer
You guys seem to pay too much attention to the crap that some rude and ungrateful people on here write. Armagetron is not dead and it won't die, however, we do need to get 0.4 out of the door. Hopefully it won't be too long before this happens.

Never seen you play, but everything you highlighted is who tron got good. All the wimmenz got scared once he came back, and development stalled. It moved a lot faster wehn we didnt have to ask it if was ok.

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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by Z-Man »

Monkey wrote:we do need to get 0.4 out of the door. Hopefully it won't be too long before this happens.
In case we were not clear: That is the plan. Everything else was just idle musings.

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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by aP|Nelg »

/dev/null wrote:Your other stuffs sucks, and I cannont pretentend it doesnt, but our stuff didnt suck, and its long forgotten.

I dislike being ignored and forgotten, It makes me punchy.

Also, adding another shitfucktastic layer to tron because you are lazy? Really dude? I will ******* kill you. PANDA
Your edit just made your post worse, not better.
Z-Man wrote:
Monkey wrote:we do need to get 0.4 out of the door. Hopefully it won't be too long before this happens.
In case we were not clear: That is the plan. Everything else was just idle musings.
You've already skipped 0.3 for 0.4, that makes me worried that you'll skip 0.4 for 0.5. 0.3 at least works but is not in development.

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Re: 3 month review (forum split)

Post by compguygene »

.3 wasn't skipped. It became .4. The .3 branch was only intended for experimental development and not meant for an actual release. The reason the devs made the .4 branch was to take everything that was in .3, combine it with things that were in .2.8.x but not in .3, and polish it up for a release. So, .3 was not skipped. It was never intended to be released in a final form. So, the devs are following the path that was agreed on when they created .3 by having created and now working toward the release of .4.
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