im not registering

A place for threads related to tournaments and the like, and things related too.

Moderator: Light

User avatar
wap
Round Winner
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:02 am

Re: im not registering

Post by wap »

Word wrote:If you're interested in development you can still be here. Who says you can't?
And why should the developers deal with the competition trouble? Is there any reason they should? The forums don't need more moderation if the group with the most hotly debated topics finally starts to grow up and manage itself in a place just for them. That also means all the Ladle-related drama won't make the main forums look bad and cause actual developers to lose time. Ww's CTF tournaments went on for years without anyone posting about them here, and there were just a few people in charge. The ladle, I think, still has a much broader player base. And you're saying yourself that the devs were too detached from the active community, so why do you even have an interest that they deal with all this if you know the ladle better than they do?
Where do you get this from? They don't need to deal with it at all.

I've never really paid attention to the 'Armagetron Add-Ons' subforum because it doesn't interest me that much. Likewise, developers (and anyone else for that matter) that don't want to deal with the competitions subforum can simply ignore it.
Word wrote:The forums don't need more moderation if the group with the most hotly debated topics finally starts to grow up and manage itself in a place just for them.
So relocating this supposedly problematic group of people will be better for the community? It sounds like you want to dump this problem elsewhere, after which you stick your head in the sand and tell yourself it'll be okay.

If there's something systematically wrong with the competitions subforum and its people, then those problems should be dealt with head on. If the game and the community are truly what matters here, then the priority should be to create a sustainable environment where all those involved with Armagetron can come together, especially today.
sinewav wrote:Great points Word. Lagtest.net was the hub for literally half the competitions in Arma. They had CTF and Sumo tournaments every month. The only thing the main forums were used for was Ladle, and even the TST, AFL, and other tournaments had stand-alone sites with individual logins for each. Never had a problem then, this shouldn't be a problem now.
Not a great point at all. Circumstances have changed significantly since then and the situation should be considered from its current position. And why did competition activity on the Wild West forum eventually die down and move to here, if it worked so well there?

You also mistakenly compare the forums with individual websites for tournaments, because even though you could sign up at these sites, they were never used as a central gathering place such as these. I have no problem signing up for a tournament on a wiki or on a separate website, but segregating the central place for competitions from the actual hub of Armagetron only seems detrimental to me.

Word
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 4181
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by Word »

Where do you get this from? They don't need to deal with it at all.
Um, do they? Whenever a topic gets out of hand it's usually not a development-related subject, or is it? Just look at the number of topics from the last months that needed moderation (I count about 9, if you look at the appeal discussions etc.). And as far as I know the forums should remain PG-13 and already have to deal with spam attacks and enough other trouble.

So relocating this supposedly problematic group
Look, I'm not accusing anyone here. It's a natural part of the whole competition that the fight on the grid continues on the forums by other means. There are plenty of examples for that, one only needs to look at the recent ban discussions related to Durf and Lizmatic. Now those discussions weren't there for no reason (I was partly responsible for what happened with that N4zi-team), it's just not something the devs need to be bothered with IMO. (Well, with the obvious exception of Durf, who managed to derail basically every subject. But he's banned now.)
With this in mind...
It sounds like you want to dump this problem elsewhere, after which you stick your head in the sand and tell yourself it'll be okay.
No, I want to "dump the problem elsewhere", so the people who are actually concerned with these issues can find resolutions on their own and make better decisions without accusing the developers of dictatorship (like Durf did). Again, this should be in your own interest because your own opinion would matter more. In the meantime, the devs can concentrate on making the game better instead of banning/censoring someone for using foul language. What a waste of time!
why did competition activity on the Wild West forum eventually die down and move to here
That has nothing to do with the question that is discussed here. Short answer: The Ladle community recruited CTF clans beginning from Ladle 18, the gap between CTF and Fortress clans continued to cause discrepencancies, Ww ended up founding Tr2n, then almost killed its own clan/the CTF community, Destiny lost interest in the game, the Untitled clan stepped up to restore the CTF competition (and as you can see, its success is rather modest even though they actually use the official forums now).

User avatar
wap
Round Winner
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:02 am

Re: im not registering

Post by wap »

I probably should have made my point clearer; developers do not necessarily have to be moderators, right?

If you are a developer and not a moderator, I see no reason why the competitions subforum should bother you at all. If you are a developer and a moderator, then you should either keep moderating if you want to handle both tasks, or you should step down and/or appoint other willing moderators if you don't want to do both tasks.

Which brings me to another point: I'd argue that the 'Really General' section generates at least as much drama/discussion as the competitions forum. Following your reasoning, shouldn't this section also be relocated as it doesn't contribute to development in the slightest and only provides more 'distraction' for mods(/devs?)?

Word
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 4181
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by Word »

Following your reasoning, shouldn't this section also be relocated
You aren't following my reasoning - the stuff posted in "Really General" is usually concerning/directed at the entire community or a paticular group of people with special interests within it (e.g. chess fans, old arcade games, music, programmers), often including the devs. Tournaments are a category in their own right (according to my reasoning, that is).
If you are a developer and a moderator, then you should either keep moderating if you want to handle both tasks, or you should step down and/or appoint other willing moderators if you don't want to do both tasks.
That's debatable. I think the current devs are the best choice for mods because they aren't involved in competitions and thus aren't biased in situations of conflict.
But hey, so far you only said that the subforum doesn't have to bother the devs (how can you know? are you one of them?). You haven't explained why a different forum would be bad for you.
they were never used as a central gathering place such as these. I have no problem signing up for a tournament on a wiki or on a separate website, but segregating the central place for competitions from the actual hub of Armagetron only seems detrimental to me.
(from your earlier post, I didn't see this a few hours ago)
That's wrong, if you look at all the discussions we had there one can say that CTF was sometimes more discussed than ladles. However, given that only a few people were in charge, these discussions rarely led to actual changes and many were unhappy with the result. Just another reason to regard this as a chance to not repeat the same mistakes. CTF competition died because in the end it depended on very few people who eventually let it die. It had nothing to do with the place.

Not sure what else to add, I think I made my point.

User avatar
wap
Round Winner
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:02 am

Re: im not registering

Post by wap »

Word wrote:You aren't following my reasoning - the stuff posted in "Really General" is usually concerning/directed at the entire community or a paticular group of people with special interests within it (e.g. chess fans, old arcade games, music, programmers), often including the devs. Tournaments are a category in their own right (according to my reasoning, that is).
This is such a shaky argument. The competitions subforum is also directed at the entire community—tournaments of any game type can be created—and if you don't agree with this, then it is at least directed at a particular group of people, just like the 'Really General' section.

If you only differentiate the general section from the competitions one by stating devs are only interested in the latter, then you should consider that Z-Man records ladles, Epsy organizes(/used to organize) and plays TSTs, and dlh has participated in many ladles.

The competitions subforum (which directly concerns Armagetron) and the 'Really General' subforum (which doesn't directly concern Armagetron) both generate most of the drama/distractions on these forums. I see no reason why one should go and the other can stay.
Word wrote:But hey, so far you only said that the subforum doesn't have to bother the devs (how can you know? are you one of them?).
If you don't concern yourself with a subforum at all, how can you possibly be bothered by it? I don't have to be a dev to know that I can ignore any parts of these forums as I please.
Word wrote:You haven't explained why a different forum would be bad for you.
Others have already more or less said it, but in the community's current state, it is a bad idea to put different aspects of the game all over the place. A central place where everyone involved with Armagetron gathers to do their "thing" (whether that be developing, organizing competitions or talking strategy) is easier, clearer for newcomers, and just logical for such a small community.
Word wrote:That's wrong, if you look at all the discussions we had there one can say that CTF was sometimes more discussed than ladles. However, given that only a few people were in charge, these discussions rarely led to actual changes and many were unhappy with the result. Just another reason to regard this as a chance to not repeat the same mistakes. CTF competition died because in the end it depended on very few people who eventually let it die. It had nothing to do with the place.
I don't understand what you're getting at here. My point was that these forums serve as the central point and bridge to whatever tournament is being organized, and thus cannot be compared to sites for individual tournaments.

Overall, I don't see how this segregation will lead to a better game/community, which is the endgoal I suppose.

Word
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 4181
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by Word »

A central place where everyone involved with Armagetron gathers to do their "thing" (whether that be developing, organizing competitions or talking strategy) is easier, clearer for newcomers, and just logical for such a small community.
Then how is a central place for tournaments not even "clearer, easier for newcomers and just logical for such a small community"? It doesn't make sense to me.
This is such a shaky argument.
Don't blame me, you brought it up by comparing two subforums that have nothing to do with one another. Of course any other subforum that is moved to a different place would make moderation here a lot easier, but the Competition category is the only one that isn't really needed here and whose relocation could actually improve things by giving the community more control, as I already pointed out. (I would argue that people should be able to put out here whatever they think belongs in "General"/"Really General" and concerns players at least indirectly, unless it's tournament-related)
I don't have to be a dev to know that I can ignore any parts of these forums as I please.
Huh? You know that the devs/mods have a certain responsibility for the direction of the community, right?
My point was that these forums serve as the central point and bridge to whatever tournament is being organized, and thus cannot be compared to sites for individual tournaments.
I got your point the first time. The only thing that will slightly change is the URL. Ww's and other clan forums did a good job of promoting tournaments/being a bridge (or whatever word you like to use) without anyone ever making an announcement here. Also, note that this new site is still connected to this one in some way, it won't be hidden.

User avatar
Soul
Match Winner
Posts: 449
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:45 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by Soul »

I nominate wap for moderator of the competitions section since apparently the current moderators are too lazy and/or retarded(lucifer) to handle simple "problems"
Chief Justice of the Armagetron Advanced Judicial System.
---------------
Notable Bans Issued:
Vogue - 12 month ban(x2)
Lucifer - 1 Day

User avatar
sinewav
Graphic Artist
Posts: 6297
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:37 am
Contact:

Re: im not registering

Post by sinewav »

I've never seen such lazy, spoiled kids ever. You don't deserve this game because you take no initiative to make it better. The new forum is a golden opportunity to do things "your way" but instead you would rather keep complaining to the management, which makes the problem worse. If it were up to me I would just simply lock any thread not related to development or support and send you on your way.

Such stupidity.

User avatar
wap
Round Winner
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:02 am

Re: im not registering

Post by wap »

you are right sinewav, the new forums are a magnificent opportunity to make this game thrive as never before

i will also refrain from giving any comments on changes in the game and in the forums, as it only makes problems worse









not fking srs




@ Word: I've made my points, I don't think we're gonna get any further

Word
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 4181
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by Word »

I'll just close with this, then: Give it a try, then we have a better basis for discussing this if you still want to.

User avatar
vov
Match Winner
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by vov »

Sort of a split from this: What do we want on the competitions forum? If it's gonna be the place to do competitions then it can have new and updated stuff. Might be a way to convince more people to join it, no?

The way it could be if we make it good (examples):
- I am a new player. I have downloaded the game, tried it, and have a question: how do I make the cycles faster? I look at the page, find a link to a forum. Oh nice, a support section. I ask my question and get a quick answer from people who want to help and are not as much obstructed/distracted by spam, quarrel, trashtalk because they know what is relevant to dev and support. I am happy about the quick answer.

- I am a slightly less new player. I've played a bit of fortress, heard about a tournament, and now want to participate in the ladle in an open team with others. I know there is a link on the main site / main forum to a special "competitions" place. I look at it and immediately see when the next one is because of the neat countdown/planner on the site and in the ladle section there is a thread "open team for ladle 123". Great!


I'm not saying it's the best solution, I do not know that. But it sounds good enough to me. Maybe another alternative could be more active specific subforum moderators so the others can get a break. Not sure if that's easy to do though.

User avatar
Soul
Match Winner
Posts: 449
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:45 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by Soul »

Brian, don't you have some ladle badges to go make or something?
Chief Justice of the Armagetron Advanced Judicial System.
---------------
Notable Bans Issued:
Vogue - 12 month ban(x2)
Lucifer - 1 Day

User avatar
vov
Match Winner
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by vov »

This is not a good place to go offtopic and distract, Soul. If you have a position in this and want to be taken seriously, support that position with arguments and contribute. Or don't post at all if you've said all you wanted to say.

Word
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 4181
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by Word »

Just to be clear, I didn't like this idea either when I saw it for the first time, but at the end of the day all of the "reasons" that have been presented here don't convince me. For me it all just comes down to some people being too lazy to register (I don't have time for ladles or playing at all, otherwise I would). Soul et al simply make a big fuss about it while the usual suspects (vov, Magi, Overrated) are long past that. At the end of the day, you probably forgot this discussion ever happened.

Sinewav did much more than most of us for ladles (at least 90 times as much as myself, if I was to quantify it, and that's just taking the brackets and ladle tools into account). The tournament's blessing or curse is that it can't depend on lazy people like Soul and company, regardless of the URL. I'm not interested anymore what these people have to say if it's all based on their lack of empathy and they mock people who care more than they do. You guys can move on without them. This should be self-evident.
Last edited by Word on Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Soul
Match Winner
Posts: 449
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:45 pm

Re: im not registering

Post by Soul »

if you think that I don't like the idea just because I don't feel like registering then you need to learn to read. tard

@vov you're right. i just wanted a badge for dreadlord's super duper 2 guys 1 cup tourney though

sincerely,
lazy soul
Chief Justice of the Armagetron Advanced Judicial System.
---------------
Notable Bans Issued:
Vogue - 12 month ban(x2)
Lucifer - 1 Day

Post Reply