Ladle Player Rule #13 Vote & Discussion

[Amaso.]

Freedom and love lol

[Durf]

@Word & Olive:
While I don't disagree with your wording...the problem I have is with "majority rule" (that's basically what it is - if the majority doesn't like it then ban it).

That is and was the problem since the start.
Specifically regarding the team name "N4zi" (it is not "Nazis", it is not "Nazism", and it doesn't have to be a declaration of anything more than the appearance of the word)


The benefit of having an "iron-clad" rule is that it doesn't depend on any group or body of people to agree to it.
When a rule is clear on something (like the example I gave that disallows political representation) there would be no question that a rule is broken or not (for 100% of people, minus the idiots that can't use a dictionary).

So I must insist that the rule be absolute in order to be fair to everyone. Since, as this community has shown already, the "majority" can be very bias, very prejudice, and very mean to people they believe have no right to exist (news flash, everyone exists in the manner they want whether you like it or not. Accept it. That includes Nazis.).

Word, The fact of the matter is, as Olive and blondie point out, anyone can get offended by anything for any reason. That doesn't automatically mean the "offensive material" should be corrected. Some people complain too much; sometimes in order to test the limits of what they can effect around them (such as testing to see if they can even cause a team to rename on a whim). This goes for the "majority" too. And it's only ever called the "majority" because the people in that group think similarly (in regards to principles, likes and dislikes, etc.). So, again, it is unfair to rely on a majority rule (that is the entire reason why there are laws protecting minority groups).
A concise wording eliminates the dependency of any group's vote.


@takburger: I mostly agree with the latest wording since it's the best we have so far. The only issue I have with it is it is in favor of majority rule.
(convenient how moderators of the forums support minority rights and freedoms, but when it comes to Nazis, OH then majority rule is preferred >_> hypocrites)



. . . . .

Again, I'd like to point out that it doesn't matter who or what they are. They are people choosing a team name.
The name in itself isn't (and doesn't have to be) a declaration of anything (any view point) and doesn't have to be supporting anything you might hate. It's just a name, and it in itself does not have to be interpreted as hate towards anyone or anything.
Just like "grammar Nazi" is not offensive because people have an understanding of the context the word "Nazi" is used in, a team name "N4zi" is NOT offensive either.

You are attributing negative traits onto your fellow tronners because of your own bias and the prejudice you carry towards a political view. These tronners don't deserve that (even if they are Nazis IRL, they should be able to enjoy the game like you do)

Not to mention that you're attributing a political view with criminals. Not all Nazis committed crimes. The goal was still achievable through selective breeding. The prejudice is non-stop with most of you. (smh)

Like I might have said before, or in another thread:
If the word "Nazi" is such a big problem, why aren't you complaining about your history books? TV and movies? Why are these forum topics okay to mention the VERY SAME WORD many, many times..? (by your own reasoning thus far, this very topic would be far more offensive that a silly team name)

Also, what about a team name relating to Communism and where the players are famous Communists that also committed atrocities? No one seems to have a problem with that either (same thing: it's a political view, the people who's players names list committed crimes, so why is it that you only have a problem with Nazism? And why does that problem YOU have, translate to you directly effecting another tronners existence in a negative way? How can you justify that?)

No amount of majority rule will make this right. (Majority rule in Germany at one point would say to kill all Jews - by your reasoning, that majority rule would have been correct and just..?)

[Phytotron]

[Soul]

.

[Durf]

You should consider the overall value of a post with nothing but a picture in it.
A picture can be worth 1000 words; but even with 1000 words you're still pretty vague.

If you have a problem with what I've said, quote me on it. Show me the way to see things. Enlighten me.
But I'm not sure what a picture of an appalled face provides to this thread. Even for comedic value it's pretty weak.

[Magi]

[dinobro]

<snip>
Actually, not worth.

[takburger]

Durf, do not mix Nazi and germans, they are not alike.

If you're a nazi in 30-45, then you're an active member of the party. If you're an active member of the party ... Well you know the history.

[Jip]

Liz has came fourth to add a #13 rule under "Rules for Players"

Code: Select all

#13. No racist,  anti-semitism or other discriminating team and player names allowed.

Since this is a Rule for players and does not affect "Ladle Settings" This is then a tron community vote.

Discuss about the rule above(we can call for a revision of the proposed rule so its worded better)

I'm calling for a proposal to reword the rule as the following

Proposal .1 | Rule #13 edit - Cody <3

Code: Select all

#13. Team & Player names cannot not be discriminatory towards: racial/ethnicity, sexual orientation, Jews

It is a shame there needs to be a vote about it at all. But yes.

[Soul]

[ppotter]

Not to mention that you're attributing a political view with criminals. Not all Nazis committed crimes. The goal was still achievable through selective breeding. The prejudice is non-stop with most of you. (smh)

Like I might have said before, or in another thread:
If the word "Nazi" is such a big problem, why aren't you complaining about your history books? TV and movies? Why are these forum topics okay to mention the VERY SAME WORD many, many times..? (by your own reasoning thus far, this very topic would be far more offensive that a silly team name)

Also, what about a team name relating to Communism and where the players are famous Communists that also committed atrocities? No one seems to have a problem with that either (same thing: it's a political view, the people who's players names list committed crimes, so why is it that you only have a problem with Nazism? And why does that problem YOU have, translate to you directly effecting another tronners existence in a negative way? How can you justify that?)

No amount of majority rule will make this right. (Majority rule in Germany at one point would say to kill all Jews - by your reasoning, that majority rule would have been correct and just..?)

Oh selective breeding is much better. I'm sure every non-Aryan would be fine with never having children. If a child borne by an Aryan couple is born with a defect? If a recessive gene causes undesirable aesthetic traits? I'm sure they wouldn't have minded if the Gestapo came and put it out of it's misery.

I don't understand why you think people shouldn't be prejudiced against a group of fascists that view any race except 'the master race' as inferior and deserving of being culled.

Communism is not comparable to Nazism. Nazism is intrinsically hateful, communism is not.

Was anti-Semitsm the majority view? Or was it just a powerful minority propagating hatred?

[Phytotron]

You should consider the overall value of a post with nothing but a picture in it.
A picture can be worth 1000 words; but even with 1000 words you're still pretty vague.

If you have a problem with what I've said, quote me on it. Show me the way to see things. Enlighten me.
But I'm not sure what a picture of an appalled face provides to this thread. Even for comedic value it's pretty weak.

[Durf]

@Phytotron...why...You read the post, you saw me asking for something a little clearer, and all you can do is insult...why?
Part of me asking you to show me what was the issue is me questioning if there is an issue at all, or if you're just looking to provoke for no reason whatsoever.
Frankly it shouldn't matter even if I am obtuse, you have only posted pictures here which are: 1) unrelated to the actual discussion, 2) merely as a means to insult.
If you're the one that isn't obtuse, you should be able to explain to me what those pictures mean exactly.

Let me put it another way: anyone can easily interpret those faces as shock from the words I posted (which wasn't explained, was just shock. for what? who knows!) or from the realization that you learned the error of your ways (no explanation needed).
If you don't have anything to say for yourself, then why are you still posting?
If all you can do is insult, why are you posting?


@Magi...smh lol


@takburger: I'm not sure if I ever said that Nazis were Germans...In fact in one post (somewhere) I remember specifically saying that not all Germans were Nazis, not all Nazis were criminals, and not all people who wear the name "Nazi" are actual Nazis. If I ever said something close to an assumption that all Germans were Nazis, I urge you to reread it, as that isn't my position on that subject.
Yes, we know the history, everyone should. Most of my point is questioning why the history even relates to a tron team name and why it seems to matter to everyone so much. Team name does not equal political view...nor does it equal historical events...nor does it have to endorse any belief or viewpoint. The thing is, you can reference all the atrocities you want, none of it matters because you are the one that interprets the tron name as something negative. Responsibility for how "offensive" and "harmful" it is, rests solely with you, not the person who created the team.


@ppotter: When I said selective breeding, I said that as a personal choice, not an enforced law. This is an example of more prejudice you carry with you that would lead you to assume the worst, just because I'm talking about Nazism.
Selective breeding does not have to mean that certain people are not allowed to have children; it means that the people choose who they breed with based on genetics traits. No laws need to be broken for this to occur and many people do it anyway.
Never said anything about the Gestapo. you brought it up as if it was a requirement for selective breeding. Again, I SMH at the prejudice.

Why I think people shouldn't be prejudiced against "a group of fascists" as you call them:
Are you okay with hypocrisy?
Put simply, if you are going to argue to support individual rights and freedoms, you can just pick and choose who you feel deserves to have them (that's precisely what the Nazis did during the war, it's the reason why you're treating them the way you are).
Moreover, here is an illustration that I linked before (somewhere) that should hopefully put into perspective that everyone has a viewpoint (and they have a freedom to have that viewpoint) link to image

It's not a matter of allowing, or condoning, or supporting, or anything that has to do with Nazism in itself.
It's a matter of hypocrisy...(really the only way I can simply put it is: people are going Nazi over Nazis)
This discussion is about forming a viable rule regarding team names.
The rule in itself should be neutral, and absolute. (the other thread is more about discussing if the team name was offensive or not, so let's keep the focus of this thread onto the ruling)

Communism is comparable to Nazism (see picture in above link); furthermore, I even referenced people that committed crimes and atrocities "in the name of communism". There is nothing different between the two besides their overall political viewpoint. Doesn't matter if the viewpoint is about hating other races / cultures, it is still a viewpoint just like Communism.

I'm not sure how your last couple of questions relate to anything...or the discussion of a concise rule for that matter. We are free to have different viewpoints in life, and we should still be able to play the same online game without wanting to kill each other for it.
If you have a suggestion / improvement for the wording of the rule, that would be more productive.

[Tank Program]

Getting off-topic. The other thread is for discussion like this.

[Vogue]

Right, seeing as the community is positive towards this "new" rule, it will stand as it is. If such team/player names exist in future ladles, it will be discussed and punished accordingly by a community vote. This won't be neccesary as most of us have common sense regarding this issue and the Hitler troll/Rookie wasn't planning on playing ladle anyway.